Art has the power to change and even lead the conversation, to spark curiosity and fuel real engagement.
But what comes first in a powerful creative project?
The idea and the message?
The tools and the talent?
Or The Funding, that can make or break it all?
My guest today is Benjamin Von Wong, who creates art on a grand scale that goes beyond awe.
He is an Artist focused on amplifying positive impact. He does that both in the process of how he creates his art, through community, and in the images it produces, finding visual metaphors that stick with people, long after they’ve seen the work.
His mission is to help make positive impact unforgettable. For the last seven years, Von Wong and his team, under the banner of “Unforgettable Labs” have generated over a billion organic views on topics like Ocean Plastics, Fast Fashion, and Electronic Waste for organizations like Dell, Greenpeace, Nike, Starbucks and Kiehl’s.
In this opening quote you can hear him wrangle with the dance between art and marketing, and his new mission to find ways to create sustainable funding streams that allow him to create message-shaping art in times and places where the world is gathered to solve some of our most pressing challenges.
It’s a move that can make his work more deeply sustainable - for himself and for his team. Von Wong’s The Unforgettable Project leverages the collective power of philanthropy to help build broader campaigns around environmentally net-positive innovations worth spotlighting - instead of waiting for corporations that are seeking eyeballs and leveraging their funding for good, he’s building a funding source that actively seeks the next project that needs to go viral.
Some of his notable work includes the Giant Plastic Tap which used trash from the slums of Kibera, in Nairobi, Kenya, to demand that corporations #TurnOffThePlasticTap. The Giant Tap was displayed prominently when 193 different countries and 1,500 delegates came together at UNEA 5.2 in 2022 to discuss what was then termed the “Paris Agreement For Plastics” and was eventually used in the United Nations official Plastics Report while raising over $100,000 for the Human Needs Project.
Recently he installed a grand sculpture at the Highline in New York City in collaboration with Kiehl’s to raise awareness and drive adoption of refillable products in the beauty world. Von Wong, along with a large community of volunteers, collected and assembled 2 tons of plastic bottles into a “single-use hydra”, seen by nearly 300-thousand visitors and close to 3 million social impressions for their message of #DontRebuyJustRefill…but as he points out in this conversation, most of the people on the High Line don’t have the leverage to change the system - which is why he seeks to place his epic art in places where the system changers meet.
I learned about Benjamin's work through his wonderful talk at Creative Mornings (a global, IRL community of creatives that hosts monthly talks all around the world). His presentation spoke to some beautiful topics - like the importance of nurturing the conditions of success (like inner narratives and cultivating community) vs chasing success, and the notion of sifting your feelings from reality when it comes to deciding what is enough - personally, financially, and in the work - ie, is my work having enough impact? Von Wong shared the ways in which he’s rewriting his inner narrative to balance his personhood and his purpose or impact. I found the talk profoundly moving and beautiful and highly recommend watching it.
In this conversation, you’ll find:
Ruminations on Creationships - relationships that exist to co-create something wonderful together (4:09)
The Importance of an Interface or a Container to foster Conversation (7:47)
Benjamin’s perspectives on going to where the conversations are already happening to have the deepest impacts. This is certainly true for the large scale work that he creates, but it is also true for anyone looking to change a big conversation. Making people come to you vs going to them means the activation energy of change is that much lower. (13:18)
Benjamin’s thoughts on Community Building and Co-creating art with a community (16:43)
The polarity Benjamin is threading right now: Balancing Speeding Up (to do more work and have more impact) and Slowing Down (in order to build deeper creationships) (26:21)
The difference between an Audience and a Community (32:44)
The power of creating a word that summarizes and defines an idea that people flock to (which we might term the Rumpelstiltskin or Le Guin Rule (as she famously wrote in A Wizard of Earthsea “To weave the magic of a thing, you see, one must find its true name out.” (33:39)
Links, Quotes, Notes, and Resources
How I made plastic pollution more shareable with a Mermaid and 10000 plastic bottles - 3/3
Benjamin Von Wong Featuring Possibly Poet: "Is activism sustainable?"
More about Benjamin Von Wong
Benjamin Von Wong creates art on a grand scale that goes beyond awe. He is an Artist focused on amplifying positive Impact .His mission is to help make positive impact unforgettable. For the last seven years, Von Wong and his team have generated over a Billion Organic Views on topics like Ocean Plastics, Fast Fashion, and Electronic Waste for organizations like Dell, Greenpeace, Nike, Starbucks and Kiehl’s.
Some of his notable work includes the Giant Plastic Tap which used trash from the slums of Kibera to demand corporations to #TurnOffThePlasticTap. The Giant Tap was displayed prominently when 193 different countries and 1500 delegates came together at UNEA 5.2 to discuss what was termed the “Paris Agreement For Plastics.” and was eventually used in the United Nations official Plastics Report while raising over $100,000 for the Human Needs Project.
Recently he installed a grand sculpture at the HIghline in New York City in collaboration with Kiel’s to raise awareness and drive adoption of refillable products in the beauty world. Von Wong, along with a large community of volunteers, collected and assembled 2 tons of plastic bottles into a “single-use hydra”, seen by nearly 300 thousand visitors and close to 3 million social impressions for their message of #DontRebuyJustRefill
AI Generated Summary by Grain
The meeting focused on the significance of deep conversations and the value of discussing seemingly mundane topics like weather. Benjamin Von Wong emphasized the concept of "creationships" and the desire for co-creating life experiences with others. They also discussed the importance of transitioning from having an audience to fostering a decentralized community and the challenges in defining language to attract the right people. Daniel Stillman and Benjamin Von Wong discussed the evolution of their approaches to artistry and project development, highlighting the significance of producing work in spaces where attention is focused and involving communities in the creative process. They also touched on reviving the patronage model for fostering creativity and change, drawing parallels between fiction writing and truth-telling.
Key Points
• Benjamin Von Wong elaborates on the concept of "creationships," emphasizing the desire for co-creating life experiences with others and the value exchange inherent in friendships. (3:48)
• Benjamin Von Wong discusses the importance of being present where conversations are happening and questions the placement of large-scale physical art. (13:18)
• Benjamin Von Wong reflects on their growth into leveraging their track record to gain access to projects like the biodiversity cop, emphasizing the importance of experience and network. (20:43)
• Benjamin Von Wong contemplates shifting from a mentorship model to a sponsorship model to support less privileged individuals with resources rather than just advice, aiming to increase capacity and create new constructs. (29:14)
• Daniel Stillman and Benjamin Von Wong delve into the concept of developing relationships and building communities, with Benjamin Von Wong reflecting on transitioning from having an audience to fostering a decentralized community and the challenges in defining language to attract the right people. (32:26)
Full AI Generated Transcript
Daniel Stillman 00:00
Benjamin Von Wong, I am grateful to welcome you to the conversation factory. Thanks for making the time for this conversation twice.
Benjamin Von Wong 00:10
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Daniel Stillman 00:12
I'm really curious, actually. What are your favorite types of conversations?
Benjamin Von Wong 00:17
Deep, insightful, nuanced conversations are the ones that I think I would go for. I love figuring out what makes people tick rather than what the weather is.
Daniel Stillman 00:29
Yes, yes. I agree with you. Deep, nuanced. I would love to unpack what makes you tick. I will just say, as a sidebar, I just listened to how to do nothing by Jenny Odell. I don't know if you're familiar with the book. She's really lovely, artist and creative, and one of the things she talks about, and I've been wanting to go on the record of saying this, she talks about how talking about the weather can seem like B's, but in her view, it basically establishes a fundamental shared reality, the land and the place that we're in. And I have to say, it kind of rocked my brain.
Benjamin Von Wong 01:13
I guess. So I guess it depends. There's a way of acknowledging a place and then there's a way of avoiding a conversation. So I guess it depends on, like, the context and the way it's delivered and the intention behind it.
Daniel Stillman 01:25
Yes. Yeah.
Benjamin Von Wong 01:27
But I don't know. Like, in my, in my sense, the bulk of weather based conversations are generally either a form of complaint. So, oh, so hot, or oh, it's so cold, or, oh, I can't believe I. Or it'll be an appreciation.
Daniel Stillman 01:41
Yeah.
Benjamin Von Wong 01:42
Like, so beautiful and I, and funnily, I think when you establish those two vectors, the one that delves in on a moment of awe and more of that shared reality piece of it, whereas the surface level complaint that everyone can agree to then doesn't have anywhere to go, maybe.
Daniel Stillman 02:01
No. That's interesting. Do you actually have a philosophy on how to take small talk and make it more, whatever, more nuanced, more probing? Like, if you want to take that opportunity, do you have a way you think about that?
Benjamin Von Wong 02:16
Yeah, I mean, I think it works really well in spaces where that is the culture, and it doesn't work so well when that. In spaces where that isn't the culture. So I can't, like, I don't know, if we're at a conference, for example, where people are all there, presumably to learn something, then I can say something that just goes straight to like, oh, what is your intention for the next two days? Like, what are you to change? What is the most meaningful thing that you've heard or how have you changed as a result of the last few conversations that you've been a part of.
Daniel Stillman 02:46
Right. Or what's the metric? What's your metric for a year? Well lived, for example. Yeah, you can't just jump to that.
Benjamin Von Wong 02:53
But on the other hand, I don't know if you're at a wedding. That's not what people really want to talk about for the most part. And so I think my ability to. To dive deep in every situation is fairly situational. Unfortunately, I haven't cracked code just yet.
Daniel Stillman 03:14
Yeah, it's an interesting code because I feel like there's a lot of people complain about small talk. We all have a lot of conversations. As an artist, it actually sort of surprised me when we first met at creative mornings and we were chitchatting that giving talks was a big part of what, what you do. And you see you have a lot of different types of conversations. Right. There's one to many and there's one to many. When you've got an army of people helping you make art, what kind of conversations do you feel like take up the most, most of your time?
Benjamin Von Wong 03:48
Conversations that take up the most of my time? Well, I think. I don't know. It's really hard to answer that question because I have such a valuable life. I very varied phases because I have a project based life, and so the projects bring me to different places and different environments and different ecosystems, and I adapt to those. But I can tell you the kinds of conversations that I'm looking to cultivate in this moment in time, conversations that revolve around creationships. So this idea that I am in this moment in my life right now, where I'm not really looking for more friendships, I'm not really looking for more relationship, but I want creationships. I want people that I can co create life with. I want to know what they want to dream, experiment, prototype, or play with. And I want to be part of that journey. And it comes from the hypothesis that I know I'm 37 years old, and it's really hard to make friends at 37. I just moved to New York, and I think that finding things to co create together is one of those ways that we'll anchor and bring people together. Yeah. Through co creation, that you understand not only how people work, but what they care about, what turns them on, what gets them excited. And similarly, you establish some level of value exchange, which I know that we want to think of friendships as non transactional, but I do think that there's a certain amount of exchange of energy that needs to be somewhat equitable for that friendship to be successful, I think that's so interesting.
Daniel Stillman 05:17
Is that a new word? Did you make that word up? It's a great word. It's so much better than a situationship. By the way, I do know that word. If somebody told me that they were in a creationship, I'd be like, oh, who's, somebody's pregnant. Got them pregnant. But this is a much better version of that too. It's a great.
Benjamin Von Wong 05:34
If you Google creationship, it's actually, some people have defined it as a different form of a relationship, like a romantic relationship in which both parties are actively creating the relationship. But I heard it in a different context. I was speaking to some friends and talking about how I was looking for more people to co create with. And this guy called Malcolm was like, oh, I think the word you're looking for is creation ships. And it stuck with me. And he had heard it from his friend Leah. And since then, I'm like, no, I think this works for me. And so I've actually defined what that word means myself. I've written a little blurb out. That's what I do. I like to write things down. And right now, at the bottom of my email signature, literally every email I send, it says, I'm looking for creation strips in New York. And I hyperlinked to this definition that I created. Do you have any recommendations? And I just think that putting that serendipity out into the world is so powerful, you never know what you find.
Daniel Stillman 06:38
It is so powerful. Just as a sidebar, you know, one of my philosophies about conversations is that they happen usually, you know, traditionally for thousands of years in a time and a place. But they also can happen in more broadly, in an interface. You know, if you put art on a rock wall, it's, you know, if you carve something into a mountain, it becomes a conversation. That can happen across the ages, right? It shifts the interface for the conversation, changes the conversation. And conversations can be linked through activities. And then I feel like in a way, the activity becomes the medium, the interface, the substrate for the conversation. And it's a romantic relationship. The putative substrate is like it's love or sex or living together, but doing stuff. But this is different. This isn't just doing stuff. This is creation and creating something. It seems much more active, and I think it's a really beautiful reframe.
Benjamin Von Wong 07:46
Yeah. And I wonder if the only differential is a level of intentionality, because most creating requires even playful creating requires a container creation to happen. We're going to be talking about medium. We're going to be talking about process. We're going to be talking about outcome or output. Right? Like, I think. I think the act of creating often comes with that, that sort of a frame. But on the one to many conversation starter piece of the puzzle, I mean, I think that's sort of the intention behind both my work and my presentations are to aid conversations. Maybe not to, like, have the conversation in that moment, but to plant some seeds for future conversations that others can have and to. To create and spark, hopefully, new conversations that were never going to happen otherwise.
Daniel Stillman 08:36
Yeah, and I want to open, unpack that because I've wanted for a while to have an artist on the show, because I think art has this power to design, to frame, to begin a conversation, or to heighten a conversation. To find in your work, you find a metaphor that helps people think about a conversation differently. In your creative mornings talk, you talked about the curiosity that somebody is drawn into with your images, to say, is this real? And that starts a conversation. And your medium is very unique. It's people collaborating, but it's also plastic trash. Like, it's a. So I'm just a very broad question, but, like, how do you think about your art as a lever, a hinge point to transform really, really big conversations?
Benjamin Von Wong 09:40
Yeah, I think the answer would have been different depending on which time you ask that question. Right. So the answer has changed over time, and as the art has grown in the past, the demand for content was focused around clickbait. So how might you do something that gets people to say, wait, what? And if that was a compelling headline, then reporters would open the email and people would click on that Facebook link, because that was how information spread. And at the time, I was doing all sorts of stunts, tying models 30 meters underwater in a shipwreck in Bali, tangling people off the edge of a rooftop, lighting people on fire and spectacle. Yeah. I would leverage that ability to not only create the moment and the stunts, but also the fact that I was good at marketing and I would do press outreach and get published. Kind of ensured the visibility. But that was in a time where, like, the sort of one to many was gatekeeped by these different large publication publicators or aggregators of content. These days, a lot of that has changed, right? Like, these days, algorithms choose what to share and what not to share. I mean, TikTok, it doesn't even matter who you follow. They'll show you content for just what they think you'll enjoy. And they sort of killed the follow button, really, and just assume that they can figure out and calculate, based on your things that you like and similar audiences, that they can actually serve you better content than what you think you can find. And so the way information spreads today is fundamentally different than how it used to spread before. And so my role as someone who creates, who rarely creates content, who takes a long time to put projects together, is much more about strategic positioning. Right. So how do I position myself in the middle of a global conversation where attention is already being directed? So I don't need to be fighting for that? And so by being one of the only artists in the room, I guess one of the few artists on this podcast, you end up meeting a whole bunch of different people, and your relationship is different. And so your ability to introduce new ideas to people is actually different. So it's like, instead of going to the artist conferences, I go to the conferences where there are no artists, so that I may contribute in a unique and different way to that conversation. So I spend a lot of time in rooms that talk about policy, in rooms that talk about technology, in rooms that are debating equity and inclusion and trying then to figure out what is my role in this space? How might I contribute to that movement? So a lot of listening.
Daniel Stillman 12:27
Yeah, generative listening. Right.
Benjamin Von Wong 12:33
What I hope to be listening.
Daniel Stillman 12:34
Yeah. Well, because then there comes an image, there's a metaphor that comes out from that. Like, obviously, the global plastics piece that you were showing at creative mornings, like, finding that metaphor and the conversations that you were having leading up to that, at least if I understand correctly from your presentation, that all of the sudden, after many conversations, they said, yes, we can do this. And you had a very, very small window to do that. And it was a scramble. And it sounds like you are redeveloping your philosophy of how you develop projects going where the conversations are. Can you talk a little bit about, like, how your philosophy is evolving now?
Benjamin Von Wong 13:18
Yeah, so I think I've going to where the conversations are happening. So, like, where does it make sense to have physical, large scale, physical art that costs six figures to produce? That's an interesting question to ask. Right. So I recently had a piece up on the highline. It was sponsored by Kieh. For two weeks, 200,000 people swung by to check it out. But what did it accomplish? What did it change? It's hard to say, because in those settings, what you're doing is you're raising awareness for an issue that people don't, broadly, don't have much control over whether or not something changes. So in this case, we were trying to promote refill solutions, but the truth is, there are very few refill solutions that are available to people. And so even if you want to be a conscious consumer, you don't have many options. And so what we need is change at a more, like, systemic level. And so, these days, what I'm really trying to think of leveraging to the best of my ability is this access piece of the puzzle. So how can I get access to places where global policy is being shaped, where the spotlight is already being shined? So, one project that I'm hoping to get access to is the biodiversity cop that's happening in Kali, where countries are coming together to announce how they're going to hit their biodiversity goals to protect 30% of land by 2030. The working concept that we have right now, and it's always dangerous to talk about concepts before you know they're going to happen, because now maybe it won't happen, is like a kind of a not necessarily falling, but deeply unstable Jenga block. And there are 54 Jenga blocks for every Jenga set. And we can put 54 different ecosystems in different terrariums and aquariums, showcasing how all these ecosystems are reliant and codependent on one another. And that unless we figure out how to stabilize this bloody tower, we're really, really screwed, because we're hitting all of these different tipping points. And each one of these ecosystems, even though they're very different from one another, really, really matter. And so what I'm trying to. So I can come up with a concept, but it doesn't matter unless the concept is actually produced in a place where people are paying attention. And if I am fighting with the millions of content creators who create content on a daily or hourly basis, how can the work actually make difference? Right? So access is number one, community is number two. Right? Like, I think. And this is something that I think is a little bit unique to my work. Many artists have teams and or the artisans or craftsmen. Like, for me, the art is about co creating it with community, because then everyone feels a sense of ownership in making difference. So these aquariums and terrariums, I would find it so much more exciting if they were co created by various students, various communities, various nonprofits all across Colombia, ideally so that they can feel represented in this piece.
Daniel Stillman 16:24
Yeah.
Benjamin Von Wong 16:26
And ultimately, it's community that's going to get me access to the right people necessary to bring the physical project to life. The engineers, the talent, access, and then the final ingredient. Then once you have these pieces of the puzzle, is funding. Yeah, I think in the past I was always starting, I was always trying to like get a company to fund something. But the problem is that companies, generally speaking, broadly speaking, have very different impact metrics. They're measuring engagement, views, sentiment analysis, like they're not trying to change a system. And so if you only start with the funding piece of the puzzle, then in some ways I think I might have been giving too much control over to the companies to dictate the boundaries of the conversation. Whereas now by flipping it around and saying, hey, I'm going to be creating something really exciting. At Biodiversity cop, I am looking for companies to join in funding something like this. Because you care about biodiversity, the conversation is very different. And I think that is the difference between art and marketing. Right. With art, what you're doing is you're creating a piece that is open to interpretation, that anyone who wants to join that movement can be a part of marketing. You need to justify how this is going to increase your returns, how it's going to change your market, how it's going to sell a bunch of stuff and product. And so I've been so far in my career, mostly stuck in working in a marketing construct, and now I'm trying to shift to concert that focus art and inviting the companies and the high net worth individuals and the people who think something like this is really worthy along for that journey. And it's been a really fun start of that journey. It's been really cool to discover that actually there are people that are interested in taking these funky gambles, even though it's literally a strategy that nobody I know is employing. Category. There's no like Sundance of film festival for me to like exhibit my stuff or to raise money for.
Daniel Stillman 18:35
Yeah.
Benjamin Von Wong 18:35
It just in its category of its own. And finding the early adopters has been really fun.
Daniel Stillman 18:42
I love the term funky gamble. It's like, it's, that's. It's awesome. So, you know, one of the things I struggled with, you know, in my, my own small type of artistry when I was designing what I was thinking of a conversation operating system, like what are the pieces that I think are actually shapeable, mushable. When I'm gathering a group of people, I can change the place. I can have soft chairs or hard chairs, I can have music, I can know, you know, the space, the place. I can have more people or less people, right. I can call the event something different, right. The name of the thing, the narrative can shift. And I struggled over a period of years of what to put in the center of my operating system. And at one point I had the invitation in the center because an invitation is, you know, at a core emotional level, is what is truly at the center of it. But because I'm a physicist at heart too, I put the place, the interface in the middle because that's really where it all comes together. And I think it's what I'm hearing. And I think this is so interesting is I love this phrase produced in a place where people are paying attention. Like, this is a really important component of this conversation. Operating system that you're building. It's gotta be in a place where there are eyeballs that are part of the problem or fixing the problem. There's got to be a community involved that helps you co create it, and there's got to be funding. And it seems like you used to put funding in the middle of your operating system. Like, okay, if somebody's willing to pay, then go. And now in a way, you're putting the place and the people and the issue in the center and the community in the center. A lot of things in the center, I don't know what you'd say is the most central, but you started with producing a place where people are paying attention. That seems like the seed.
Benjamin Von Wong 20:43
I think that's the seed. And to be fair, I think it couldn't have happened before because, like, if I hadn't created the work at the global plastic treaties, like I have multiple times, like two, three times, like, it wouldn't have the track record to like, hit someone up at the next conference that I have. Like, I don't have a portfolio of work around biodiversity, right? I'm touching it for the first time, but I have a track record of having done meaningful work at these, you know, large conversations. And so I think now it's almost like a growing into your, your power. And it's like, it feels like that's the next evolution. Just like in the past, I don't know, like five years ago, I think it would have been a lot harder for me to find enough people to ask money from, to feel like I actually had like a network to ask from. But, like, now, like, I have been giving, like, I make money at like one out of every three projects I do. But, like, I mean, so I've been so much to the movement that now I can ask for something back in return and I can confidently say what I can deliver. So time is an ingredient, right? Time is an ingredient. And in the same way that your conversation operating system has evolved, I am sure that when it was 1st, 1st designed and when the invitation was maybe at the center, it made sense at the time. And so I don't know. I think sometimes maybe we kick ourselves for getting things wrong, but sometimes it can be right for the time and wrong now.
Daniel Stillman 22:18
Well, this pulls me to. I was just rewatching your talk on creative mornings. It was such a beautiful talk, not least of all, by the way, it was the first talk I've ever been to where there was somebody playing melodious piano music in the background. It created this dreamy, elevated, phantasmagoric quality to your talk. When did you start doing that? Had you done that? You had never done that before. I think you had said, is that right?
Benjamin Von Wong 22:44
First time?
Daniel Stillman 22:45
Yeah, I think it was just amazing ingredient. Do you think you'll try to do that again?
Benjamin Von Wong 22:54
Yeah, I would love to do it again. The challenge is going to be to convince people to let me do it, but otherwise I think it's great. I would actually have even loved it to be. I would have loved the music to be more present. So I think the way Charlie played music in this one, he was trying to be respectful of me and not interfere with the flow. But I would have loved him to be a conversational participant. So if I had a mic drop moment for him to create a fun mic.
Daniel Stillman 23:24
Yeah.
Benjamin Von Wong 23:25
Moment to like have a reaction to that.
Daniel Stillman 23:28
Yeah. Cuz he didn't know your talk really. He adapted. I definitely saw like when you, you actually had like a little verbal break and he like made some like crazy hijinx music at that moment. It was, it made it like, oh, this is fun. This is fun.
Benjamin Von Wong 23:40
Yeah, he definitely had all these like, moments. But I think it like to have even more presence. I think. I think maybe if we had rehearsed a little bit more.
Daniel Stillman 23:48
Yeah.
Benjamin Von Wong 23:49
Breaks or something, I think that would have been really fun.
Daniel Stillman 23:52
I think that's awesome. It's lovely.
Benjamin Von Wong 23:54
I'd love to workshop that more.
Daniel Stillman 23:56
The thing that really caught me most in your presentation, and this is sort of my original invitation to you, is this idea of. And this was the conversation where I never really started thinking about inner narratives. When I started thinking about conversations, I was thinking about group dialogue. I was thinking about community. I was thinking about organizational transformation. Big, you know, big conversations, but they're all driven by inner conversations. And what I sort of was tracking in your talk was this thread of how you went from I want purpose and you pulled at that thread, and then you're like, crazy projects aren't enough. I'm not doing enough to what is enough. I just. I watched this, you know, refinement, honing, clarification, carving, reframing, where you're even holding up two opposing ideals that, you know, infinite growth versus enoughness. And I feel like everything, everything winds up being some kind of attention, a polarity. And I'm wondering in yourself right now, what is the polarity that you're dancing in between.
Benjamin Von Wong 25:20
Right now? I would say the polarity I'm dancing around with is that there is a desire to both speed up and slow down simultaneously. So in order to make new creation ships in my life, I need to have space for them.
Benjamin Von Wong 25:45
And so that's a piece of me that's like, I need to slow down. I need to have spaciousness so that I can nurture these new creationships that I am slowly developing here in New York City. And then the other half of me is the one that's like, oh, my gosh, I got this awesome new formula. I have the potential of creating an art installation at Everest, at cop 16, at UNGA, at the Inc. Five global plastic treaty negotiations. And if all of this goes according to plan, I am literally going to be out August, September, October, November. And I'm like, wait, what am I actually doing? Like, which one do I want? Which, like, how can I have both? And I'm not too sure. I don't know. It's sort of unresolved. I guess the way I'm thinking about it is, well, first come, first serve. And, you know, many of my projects don't go through, but those are the ones that no one sees, so really no one knows about them. But then when a product doesn't go through, I guess then I will have a reason to celebrate and to enjoy that spaciousness when it is there. So I think. I think that's currently, I'm letting things play out. I'm holding the space for that duality, that polarity, and I'm letting time tell me, time and emergence, I suppose, dictate the rest.
Daniel Stillman 27:09
Yeah.
Daniel Stillman 27:13
Speed and spaciousness is a really rich. I mean, there's a tool called polarity mapping where you look at the pluses of both of them and the downside of over indexing on one versus the other. And I can definitely see the value of speed, right? You want to make more work. You want to make more impact. And I guess given that you're an empire builder and part of your money makeup, you want to make more money, right? You want to strike while the iron's hot. And I also imagine that there's a downside of over indexing on speed to the. To the cost of. To the detriment of spaciousness.
Benjamin Von Wong 27:58
Yeah, for sure. You know, I think I'm at this really interesting point in my career where I have enough money so that I can do whatever I want to do. Have to do any projects that I don't believe in. Right. I don't have to do any projects just for money. And so I have all the freedom in the world if I literally just disappeared for six months like no one's life depended on it. But simultaneously, I'm not successful enough to scale and hire a team, and I'm like, to have that stability, to bring one more person on board requires me to triple my revenue.
Daniel Stillman 28:37
Yes.
Benjamin Von Wong 28:38
Right. At least. And I'm like, how do you close that gap? So I don't know. I don't have that answer. But I was listening to. I was at a purpose marketing conference just yesterday, and someone said something really interesting. They're saying how, like, you know the world. Like, many, many times, there are wealthier individuals who are. Who have made it, who will offer to significantly less privileged people. They'll be like, oh, I'll mentor you for free. But what that person needs is not just more advice on what to do, but rather what they need are just resources. And so this idea of actually shifting from a mentorship model to maybe a sponsorship model actually makes a lot more sense in those situations. And I'm like, oh, maybe some random person will just sponsor that one extra human to increase capacity. Maybe it doesn't have to be like, I don't know. There's so many different ways of transacting in the world and so many ways of existing that it's like, oh, I never thought of that as a possibility before, but, like, what if I randomly created a construct around that?
Daniel Stillman 29:41
Yeah.
Benjamin Von Wong 29:42
Manifest itself?
Daniel Stillman 29:44
Well, you know, that's what the Medicis did. There used to be this idea of being a patron.
Benjamin Von Wong 29:48
I know that.
Daniel Stillman 29:49
Right?
Benjamin Von Wong 29:50
We need to bring that back.
Daniel Stillman 29:51
It's like, what kind of a king are you if you're not, you know, cultivating a renaissance? Where's your renaissance? And, you know, the king of Germany is like, oh, geez, I've got to get some artists on my payroll and just get them to make some art so that for the glory of the empire.
Benjamin Von Wong 30:09
Well, in this case, I think it's not for the glory of any empire, but rather for the survival of humanity.
Daniel Stillman 30:14
Yes.
Benjamin Von Wong 30:17
Helping to shape and accelerate change in an inspiration, inspiring and empowering way that is bringing people across different professions and lines together. I mean, like, I wish there was a word to describe the kind of work that I create, because then I could try to find my people, but it seems like that not being done well.
Daniel Stillman 30:37
I mean, I. My phrase. Well, I. You know, I'm a chef who thinks the world is food. You're a conversation designer. That's what I. But that's what I think. Many. It's a lens you could give to many things, many types of work. But I can see the. Certainly the challenge that I see you facing right now is it's a classic startup challenge. Right. The revenue to create growth or to fuel the investment, the foundation for growth. And it's a chicken. And it seems like a chicken and egg challenge. And I see how you use community as a multiplier for your work. It's really amazing. And I'm wondering if we can just talk a little bit more. We haven't talked. I wanted to talk a little bit more about community. I remember the humble badasses. You've got a phraseology. We've got. What was the other one? Oh, God. I'm gonna have to look at the. Not a quirky bet. Oh, man, this is so embarrassing. But I feel like there's been some coining of phrases, and humble badasses was one of the coinages that you've made that was.
Benjamin Von Wong 31:56
Well, I didn't make that one. It was recommended by another friend, Christine Lai. So I have these wonderful conversations with my friends who helped. I tell them these abstract ideas I have, and someone eventually comes up with a thing that sticks, and humble badasses was just, like, frame when I was trying to describe the kinds of people that I wanted to have in my life. Yeah, yeah. Wait, what was the question, though?
Daniel Stillman 32:17
Well, yeah, I mean, when. So the other side of that polarity we're talking about is the spaciousness to develop relationships.
Benjamin Von Wong 32:25
Yeah.
Daniel Stillman 32:26
And it seems like you have at least two types of relationships that I think you're investing and I presume, you know, one on one and many to many, the, you know, hosting events, being part of a community. Yeah, sorry, go ahead.
Benjamin Von Wong 32:41
Yeah, yeah. So I think that I have actually been very good, historically at building an audience, and an audience is where, like, I'm at the head of the table, I'm announcing something I'm gonna do, and people get follow along. I'm like the Pied piper leading a crew along the way to do some, like, go on some crazy adventure. And what I'm hoping to build these days is more of a community. And I think a community is decentralized and ideally doesn't even necessitate the person who started the community to gather and to talk and to design and to build and to create together. And that's something I don't have a lot of experience in. And so what I do, because I don't have community, is I find communities, and I try to engage them in my activities. But what I would like to do moving forward is to figure out how to start cultivating my own. And I think that's one of the reasons why I. I am playing around with language. Lot to define words that I want but don't quite know how to describe. And the hope is that if you can create the language around it, then the people can find it. But if you cannot define it, then how do they feel drawn to it? Yes. And that's important, because even though as cool as the humble badass thing is and saying, I'm looking for humble badasses, I think many people, many humble badasses wouldn't identify themselves as humble badasses. They wouldn't flock to that kind of a banner. And so it's something that requires almost like this active workshopping and playing and prototyping and seeing how it resonates in the world.
Daniel Stillman 34:16
There is this power to having a word for something. And I see the thing you were asking for in that previous beat of, what does it mean to be someone who multiplies a movement or who is a parabolic reflector, you know, that concentrator of a movement, a lens. I don't have the word for it, but it's really finding the metaphor and the image, which, ironically, is literally what you do, is you're trying to find a metaphor for your metaphor.
Benjamin Von Wong 34:48
I am. And ideally, make that as inclusive as possible.
Daniel Stillman 34:52
Right.
Benjamin Von Wong 34:52
Like, you don't want to make it so. So ambitious and arbitrary that no, people can't join it. And so what does that look, I know I probably need to talk to someone who, like, writes fantasy books. Like the people who design languages.
Daniel Stillman 35:07
Yes.
Benjamin Von Wong 35:08
Ask them, like, if they were to create a world in which this were to be true, what would that look like? What would the words be? What would the guild or the people that championed this thing, like, what flag would they. I don't know.
Daniel Stillman 35:21
Yeah. And you used that phrase before flocking to the banner. And that is really, it is a powerful message that there is something to be said for being a bannerman or the designer of a banner, a banner maker, but it's something bigger than that. And I feel like it's very exciting to find the right word for a thing, not for nothing. Speaking of fantasy writers, Ursula Le Guin, I don't know if you've read any of her work. She was a, she's deceased now, an amazing science fiction fantasy writer. And her philosophy was like, I don't talk about the world as it might be. I talk about the way the world is. The fantasy is a lens to look at the issues of today. And one of her famous quotes is knowing the true name of the thing. I'm gonna get it wrong. There's something about knowing the true name of a thing is a way to control or relate to the thing, to find the true name of this thing.
Benjamin Von Wong 36:23
I like that. Yeah. It also reminds me of what Neil Gaiman said, which was like, fiction writers use fiction to tell the truth. Yes. And people who tell the truth, like, basically create a fiction.
Daniel Stillman 36:35
Yes. Right.
Benjamin Von Wong 36:37
Even if you're trying to be objective as a journalist, for example, you can't. You're biased. In your perspective of the world. You're limited.
Daniel Stillman 36:44
Yes. As a woman in the sixties, she saw sexism and wrote a book about called the Left hand of darkness, where there's a world where people shift genders back and forth, kind of like every lunar cycle. And how can she illustrate? It's a crazy book. And it actually took me a long time to realize the punchline, which is that, like, the main character looks at these people as weird, alien and wrong, whereas, like, this is just how they are. It's about discrimination. It's really hard to see that in the book, but that's not even what we're here to talk about. But it's a. She's a mind exploding writer. She's super awesome. We have boiled through our time so rapidly, I feel like there's. There's always a lot unsaid, a lot unasked, unvoiced. And what haven't we talked about that we should talk about? Like, what haven't I asked you that is important to say?
Benjamin Von Wong 37:59
I mean, I don't know. Like, there's so much more. There is so much left unsaid. There is so much more that is left unsaid than has actually been said from that infinite cosmic that could possibly say and say that one was more important than another. I don't know if there's anything in mind at this moment. Anyways, I guess I would be curious to hear from the audience. What would their next question be?
Daniel Stillman 38:32
That's a great question. They can't hear us right now. But that's a great question.
Benjamin Von Wong 38:39
But all in good time.
Daniel Stillman 38:40
There's one thing I didn't ask you about that I wanted to ask you about, which is another polarity that you identified in your creative mornings talk around being a person versus having a purpose.
Benjamin Von Wong 38:55
Yeah.
Daniel Stillman 38:56
And I feel like in the middle of that, was this enoughness idea sort of like going between those two? And I don't know if that's correct or not. I'm curious how you're thinking about balancing your person ness and your purpose these days.
Benjamin Von Wong 39:13
Yeah, I think it's accurate. I think you did a really good job of dividing that because really, you know, there are many people who lose themselves in their passions. Right. They lose themselves in their purpose, and that's not a really good thing because you end up burning out and fade really quickly.
Daniel Stillman 39:30
Yes.
Benjamin Von Wong 39:31
And so, and then the opposite of that, which is not having a purpose or not having a passion, or not knowing why you're here or not knowing how to contribute is equally horrifying. And so somewhere in between those two lies a balance of finding the space in which you as an individual can thrive and that your purpose can thrive and that you don't lose yourself in one or the other. And this idea of enoughness helps us to be grateful, because when we focus on abundance, which I think is really trendy right now, everyone wants to focus on abundance because the universe will provide and you just need to dream bigger and yada, yada, yada, I think what that does is that it basically encourages you to never be satisfied with what you have and to always seek the next thing. And in some ways, we get so addicted to this idea of growing, growing our impact, growing our teams, growing our profit margins, whatever it happens to be, growing the quality of our work that we sort of forget what, well, why are we doing this? Or, like, what makes us happy, what brings us joy, what gives us a sense of fulfillment? What are our core values?
Daniel Stillman 40:47
Yeah.
Benjamin Von Wong 40:48
And I think, like, in my case, answering the like, what is enough question requires you to understand, like, what it is that makes you tick as a person. And my core values are, they start with curiosity and adventure. Like, I like to. I just love novelty and I love going on adventures, but I can't just go on adventures. I need them to be for some intention. So the second value that comes for the purpose of change and transformation, like, I want to do things that lead to some level of growth, either internally for myself or externally for the world. Right. That's one balance to strike between the two and then that last piece of the puzzle is to do both of those things with kindness and authenticity, because I want to show up in a world in a way that others will show up with me for. And so do I have enough in my life to create the conditions for those three to thrive? Yeah, I think so. And do I have enough in my mission? Am I contributing enough to the world in which I am constantly challenging myself to try new ways of being in the right place at the right time, creating the right pieces of art for the right people? Like, I think. Yes. And I think that's why, you know, when you ask that initial question of, like, you know, what. What is my process and what is my philosophy behind it? Like, that is a constant evolution, because I am constantly trying to find the next evolution of my work. And I think there's a way to do it healthily, which is having this north star of what is enough, and there's a way to make unhealthy, which is just to pursue greatness for the sake of greatness more, for the sake of more. And essentially why we are in this sort of unsustainable world that we currently live in is, I think, is this insatiable pursuit of more for everyone all the time.
Daniel Stillman 42:36
Yeah.
Benjamin Von Wong 42:37
Yeah.
Daniel Stillman 42:38
Which is just not possible.
Benjamin Von Wong 42:40
Which is not possible.
Daniel Stillman 42:42
But enough might be enough.
Benjamin Von Wong 42:45
Enough is possible. We know that that is possible. There's this book that I've been reading that I really love. It's called tea medicine. And the reason I love the book is because it takes all these spiritual concepts, but views it through the lens of tea. Tea drinking and tea growing and everything tea related. And one of the things it talks about is one of the reasons it's really important for us to drink tea that is organic, is because organic tea ensures that not just our generation can drink tea, but future generations can also drink tea. And so when we say tea is for everyone, it is for everyone, but maybe not for everyone all the time, whenever they want it.
Daniel Stillman 43:28
Yeah.
Benjamin Von Wong 43:29
And. And if that means that sometimes we have to, like, not have it when, whenever, like, not having that level of convenience.
Daniel Stillman 43:42
Yeah.
Benjamin Von Wong 43:42
Then we have enough. Right. We do have enough. We just don't have enough for everyone all the time, whenever they want it within, they, like, ship to your doorstep in 24 hours, you know?
Daniel Stillman 43:51
Yeah.
Benjamin Von Wong 43:52
That's the part that doesn't work so well.
Daniel Stillman 43:54
Yeah.
Benjamin Von Wong 43:55
So that really resonates.
Daniel Stillman 43:58
That's so powerful. Ben, I'm really grateful that you came to have this spacious, purposeful conversation. And if people want to learn more about you and your work. Where should they go on the Internet or in the world to learn more about you? If they want to learn more, yes.
Benjamin Von Wong 44:24
They can just type von Wong on Google Vonwong and they can find me on Instagram, YouTube. I have videos and photos of every single one of my projects follow me on Instagram. I don't post that well, but it's there for those who are more like business oriented and they want to see some case studies of the work combined like and packaged, you can go to unforgettablelabs.com. and there's this final new thing that I'm kind of prototyping. I'm trying to figure it out, but it's built around this idea of just finding funders that are interested in supporting this work. And that one you can find at the von Wong thevonwong.com dot. It's sort of a working website in progress where I'm actively trying to think of like, oh, what happens? Instead of, you know, social media is about trying to reach as many people as possible. But what if I only needed to have like 100 patrons that were investing in projects? What would that look like? And so I don't think a platform like that exists, unfortunately. But at the very least, I'm starting to think and view once again my role and the people I'm trying to convene a little bit differently. And I think that would be a really powerful community of people, too.
Daniel Stillman 45:38
So yeah, convene is a great word. Convene. Convene. Thank you so much. I will call scene and I will just, I assume that all just felt that was a lovely conversation. I really just appreciate your presence and your honesty.
Benjamin Von Wong 46:00
Yeah, that was great. I like that it didn't focus very much on the why, on the how. They didn't ask a single like how question, like everything was on the, like the why or the, the underlying layer underneath it all. And I think many podcasts focus so much on the how. And like, how is such a, like a useless conversation to have because no one is going to do what I do over the weekend.
Daniel Stillman 46:24
Like I assume the how is glue and or wires or toothpicks, I'm not sure. But there's a lot of hows, there.
Benjamin Von Wong 46:33
Is a lot of hows. Theres a lot of hows and theres also a lot of like, oh, where do you get your inspiration from? And I think thats also a form of a how. But I think what we were talking about was maybe about like, what makes a human tick and what are some pieces of that ticking that I can tinker with to, like, lubricate my own little gears. Yes. Felt like a lot of little, like, interesting little seeds that were being.
Daniel Stillman 46:59
I love that image. I would love to include this after this after conversation in the conversation because.
Benjamin Von Wong 47:05
It'S testimonial inside the podcast for your podcast.
Daniel Stillman 47:12
Yeah. Well, that's beautiful. Thank you so much, Ben. You're a rock star.
Benjamin Von Wong 47:15
Cool. I didn't know what kind of conversation you're hoping for, but hopefully this delivered.
Daniel Stillman 47:19
This was exactly it.
Benjamin Von Wong 47:21
Great, great. I love it. I love it.