This episode is a little different than most…Today I do some live-coaching for Rashmi Sharma, a Global HR executive and TedX speaker, on shifting what she wants to be known for, evolving what she wants to offer to the world and how her work can heal others, while she heals herself.
I’m so grateful that Rashmi reached out to me for some coaching after we were both speaking at a virtual conference in Southeast Asia. As Rashmi has evolved as a leader, she wanted to do some deeper thinking about how she can evolve her thought leadership, and offer something to her community from a deeper place in herself.
I really commend Rashmi’s courage in sharing her process with so much vulnerability. As you’ll hear in the conversation ahead, Rashmi and I talk about (although very indirectly) the ideas of sublimation - healing your own wounds through helping others.
We also dive deep into how she can hold space and create more depth in her conversations, as she interviews her community to understand what wellness and wholeness really means to them.
Make sure you check out the show notes for Rashmi’s full notes reflecting on her insights from the coaching conversation, but, two that I want to highlight here are:
Using all of yourself to Lead
Joseph Campbell famously said “it’s the privilege of a lifetime to be as you are”...
Finding and highlighting her phrase “use all of me to help people” was a golden nugget in the conversation. This is what Rashmi’s interest and work on wholeness and wellbeing is really about - allowing our whole selves to be accessed in our lives. So, it makes sense that Rashmi wants to do the same for herself.
Creating Depth in Conversations
One powerful way to create more depth is to go there yourself...Rashmi and I talk about asking and listening from a deeper place in herself.
We also highlight the idea that "Slow is smooth and smooth is fast," a motto from the Navy Seals. As she interviews her community to gain insights on her new area of focus, Rashmi realized that slowness and smoothness allows people to get comfortable and to think more deeply in her interviews.
Slow and Smooth can mean slowing down your own voice, creating a little bit more space between your words, and it also means waiting a little bit between what they've said and your second question, your response. (Extra credit for not thinking about what you’re going to say or ask next while they’re talking!)
Slowing yourself down can help others slow down and connect. Active listening helps me really hear, and also helps my partner hear themselves. Depth in a conversation can be hard at high velocity.
One piece of advice I shared with Rashmi as she prepared to head into her next round of community interviews was to simply take a deep breath and ask her partner to tell a story. Narratives can pull a conversation from a back-and-forth of questions and answers. Narratives can help you more deeply enter into the world of the person you’re talking to and hoping to get insights from.
I love to work with leaders trying to define their thought leadership, leaders trying to scale their impact and leaders working to transform their organizations. I only work with a handful of high-performing folks each year. If you’d like to reach out about coaching, head over to DanielStillman.com/coaching
Links, Quotes, Notes and Resources
Rashmi’s notes:
“There were several key takeaways for me:
Clarified to me why I want to really speak about this. Why does it matter to me so much? "This is a classic and really powerful way of growing and healing, psychologically, giving to others what we wanted and needed for ourselves. It's basically healing our own inner child's children, our own inner child. Time travel, in the present. By helping other people, we are helping ourselves." that I want to "use all of me to help people."
So much insight on creating a safe space for the interview and generally the way we should 'research': "If I were to give you advice, the much more effective is, tell me more about that, or can you remember a time when you felt that most acutely? Can you tell me a story about the last time you blanked? Can you take me there? Paint me the picture?" "So there's a couple of points here. One is that this is a great part of the research process when things start to feel repetitive. But that also means that you need to change your approach to find deeper insights."
THIS - "Slow yourself down, slow them down. The US Marines say, "Slow is smooth and smooth is fast." And slowness and smoothness allows people to get comfortable, to think, which means slowing down your own voice, which I'm doing now. It means making a little bit more space between your words, it means waiting a little bit between what they've said and your second question, your response."
My interviews have been much more effective after this.”
Minute 1
The second reason why it's important from a more tangible perspective is, I feel like success should not come at a cost of wellbeing. And I think it is possible to thrive, which is to grow, to be happy, without trading off either of those things.
A lot of times people think that, "I can be successful, or I can be a CEO, but I won't have time for my family. I won't have time for taking care of my health. I won't have time to take vacations." And that's the way it is. It's normal. And if you do have that balance, there's clearly something you're not doing right.
It's almost like that, and I want to dispel that thing and say that it is possible to have your cake and eat it too, when it comes to wellbeing and performance, because wellbeing is a driver of performance, not a trade-off. That's how you create that balance in your life. And you should aspire for that balance, than just aspire for things which tangibly people can see, how high do you go in the corporate ladder and so on and so forth.
Minute 11
I feel like I can do so much more, but I haven't got an opportunity to leverage and push those levers, because I didn't have a cause. It's like feeling you have a voice, but you don't have a song. I want a song which is worthy so that I can use the full variation of my voice to do that.
Minute 29
Rashmi:
So even though I did prepare an interview guide, I feel I need to relook at that, the setup, the questions. How can I immediately share with them where I am without speaking too much, so that they get it? They get it, the kind of conversation this is, immediately.
Daniel:
This is what I would call designing the invitation to the conversation, bringing them into a space that you are creating. It's a conversational space. And being super intentional about the design of that invitation is 100% powerful. You really have to dial it in.
If you over explain, you're going to get just what you're looking for. As you scrunch your nose. And you don't want that, you want to get what's really inside of them. I think okay it's to say, "This topic is really important to me. I really want you to be as honest and open as possible. I'd love to share some of my stories, but it's more important that I get your stories, so that I can use your stories to help inspire other people, that we can live a balanced life and be whole people."
More About Rashmi
On a mission to help people thrive and be anti-fragile by unlocking the powers of leadership, learning & wellbeing.
With 15+ years of experience in catalyzing action, Rashmi has built her expertise learning from some of the best names in global people practices - IBM, Aditya Birla Group, Unilever. As an HR consultant, she has implemented core learning, talent & leadership development initiatives. Have extensive experience straddling global, regional and local leadership roles.
She is a speaker on how to stay fit in the future of work. Apart from her TEDx talk, she has been invited & spoken at 7 countries at prestigious events such as Corporate Innovation Summit, HRM Asia- Singapore, The Fit Summit Singapore, Innovation & Tech Fest, Sydney to share her thoughts & experiences.
Likely one of the fastest learners and multifaceted person you would meet, she derives ideas from diverse places, which she has deliberately exposed herself to. For e.g. after seeing the struggle firsthand on how difficult it is to provide good leadership learning to young managers at scale, she ventured building a tech solution with support of her organization and Entrepreneur First, an incubator backed by Reid Hoffman.
She is equally comfortable with corporate hierarchies as she is with the start-up ecosystem or with creative art forms. She has been a pageant finalist, a theatre actor and a Lindy Hop dancer having danced across 9 international locations. These experiences have helped her be ‘antifragile’ – which she believes is a key skill for a rapidly evolving future.
Full Transcript
Daniel Stillman:
So why is wellness, balanced wellness important to you? I want you to, just before you answer, because you're looking up, I want you to look in. Just take a second and say, "Why is wellness important to me?"
Rashmi Sharma:
So, more than wellness, I would say balanced life and wellness is a part of it. It's important to me for three reasons. One reason is that, again, there was a saying that, doing only one thing in life, it's like going to an ice cream shop and having only one flavor. So that's a part of it.
Daniel Stillman:
Who can do that?
Rashmi Sharma:
I feel so much to do. So that's one thing.
Rashmi Sharma:
The second reason why it's important from a more tangible perspective is, I feel like success should not come at a cost of wellbeing. And I think it is possible to thrive, which is to grow, to be happy, without trading off either of those things.
Rashmi Sharma:
A lot of times people think that, "I can be successful, or I can be a CEO, but I won't have time for my family. I won't have time for taking care of my health. I won't have time to take vacations." And that's the way it is. It's normal. And if you do have that balance, there's clearly something you're not doing right.
Rashmi Sharma:
It's almost like that, and I want to dispel that thing and say that it is possible to have your cake and eat it too, when it comes to wellbeing and performance, because wellbeing is a driver of performance, not a trade-off. That's how you create that balance in your life. And you should aspire for that balance, than just aspire for things which tangibly people can see, how high do you go in the corporate ladder and so on and so forth. These are the [crosstalk 00:02:21].
Daniel Stillman:
This is good, this is a lot. Take a deep breath. Let's slow down for a second, if that's okay. I want to know what's important to you about a balanced life, and not having to sacrifice one part of yourself for the benefit of another?
Rashmi Sharma:
Because I feel like I'm very multi-faceted, interested in a lot of things, and I don't think being great at one thing will make me happy, if that means I have to cut out parts of myself and not do those other things. I won't feel fulfilled, I won't feel that I've exercised what God gave me, in terms of interests, talents.
Daniel Stillman:
What's the risk to you, if you have to cut out a part of yourself?
Rashmi Sharma:
I guess fulfillment. Happiness. I don't know, probably a better word for it.
Daniel Stillman:
That phrase really jumped out to me. I'm really curious about, if you felt that experience, if you felt like you needed to or had to cut out parts of yourself.
Rashmi Sharma:
Yeah. I did. You want me to talk about it?
Daniel Stillman:
I want to follow you, but I'm following also my own curiosity, because I think we're talking about finding a pathway and understanding what balanced wellness means to other people. There's the positive aspect. And then this is the painful aspect. This is the dark side. This is what that risk, if we don't-
Rashmi Sharma:
Yes, so I think in a very short way-
Daniel Stillman:
Your background has changed into something very weird.
Rashmi Sharma:
Yeah, because I just realized that, since it's recorded. A neutral one.
Daniel Stillman:
Fair.
Rashmi Sharma:
So it helps me be seen, be understood, and be recognized for the whole self of me. I guess it comes from your childhood and your inner child and all of that thing. And yes, I may have felt some parts of me unseen, in a very loving manner, but unseen. And maybe that's where it's coming from.
Daniel Stillman:
Maybe that's where it's coming from?
Rashmi Sharma:
Yeah.
Daniel Stillman:
What parts of you do you want the world to see, that you feel like the world doesn't get to see?
Rashmi Sharma:
Creative, entrepreneur, fun. I am fun and everybody knows me as fun, but somebody who is successful in terms of what they want to do, whether it's... I'm not saying they don't see me as that, they do see me as that. But I feel like not many people want to be that. They don't want to explore other parts of their personalities, because they've been told that. I was told that to was too, I was, but I did it. I'm like, "You know what, you guys can do it too." But I don't want to force people into it.
Rashmi Sharma:
But I just want to raise their awareness that if they want to, they can.
Daniel Stillman:
This is a classic and really powerful way of growing and healing, psychologically, giving to others what we wanted and needed for ourselves. It's basically healing our own inner child's children, our own inner child. Time travel, in the present. By helping other people, we are helping ourselves.
Daniel Stillman:
It's complex, but if we're clear on what we're doing, it can be really powerful, that we are helping, and that we are also healing ourselves.
Rashmi Sharma:
Oh, my God, you're absolutely right. Because for the last three, four days, I've been going through all my video recordings of the interviews. And while I'm making notes for my synthesis, it's also, the penny is dropping in my head for myself as well. I'm like, I see. So these parts is what I'm happy with, these parts, all of that.
Daniel Stillman:
You're doing some looking at yourself through their eyes. One of the things I'm curious about is, you do keynote speaking, and you said, "I only want to talk about this now." What's important about speaking just about this?
Rashmi Sharma:
Because I want this to be my thing, I want this to be my thing. I want to be seen as somebody who is inspiring people to thrive, who is helping people, helping them expand their consciousness of what success is. Not saying it's not expanded right now, but there will be people who may have questions about it. I can interview people who have done it and shared how they have done it.
Rashmi Sharma:
I feel a lot of times, we don't do what we want to do, because we don't see role models for that. What if there are CEOs role modeling, having a very thriving family life, hobbies, great work, professional success? And then one CEO can see, "You know what..." I have people telling me that. It's like, I looked at my boss, and I'm like, "Why do Europeans get to have all the fun? Why do Indians work 17 hours?"
Rashmi Sharma:
And then the wheels start turning and then you're like, you know what, you can do it. It's just that you don't know how. I want to raise that awareness. Sorry, what was your question? It's not like I don't want to talk about learning or wellbeing and all of the other things I already do.
Rashmi Sharma:
But I feel like if I want to double down on this, I have to leave all, not leave, but I have to put a lot of energy into being let's say the best speaker about this in the world. So obviously, then I'd want to put focus on this.
Daniel Stillman:
So if you do put focus on this, if you really focus on finding out the most powerful way to inspire people to have a balanced life, what becomes possible for you then? If we visualize that future state, what do you see when you look around there? You are there, you are powerfully inspiring people. What do you notice?
Rashmi Sharma:
I notice the whole self of me. I notice myself using whole of me to help people. All of me to help people.
Daniel Stillman:
I just want to stop you there, because that is a wonderful phrase, "Using all of me to help people." I want us both to just sit with that phrase for a second. Because I feel it in my chest [inaudible 00:11:09] that. "I'm using all of me to help people."
Daniel Stillman:
When you think about using all of you to help people, what does that feel like? Where does that sit with you? You don't have to guess, by the way, I want you to sense. I just want you to feel the words [crosstalk 00:11:35].
Rashmi Sharma:
I might get emotional.
Daniel Stillman:
Good. That's okay. Me too.
Rashmi Sharma:
I have tissues. I'm good with it. I feel like I can do so much more, but I haven't got an opportunity to leverage and push those levers, because I didn't have a cause. It's like feeling you have a voice, but you don't have a song. I want a song which is worthy so that I can use the full variation of my voice to do that.
Rashmi Sharma:
And also, because I think amongst many things which I can do, not everything I can do as a master, but amongst many thing I can do, I feel like this is one of my strengths, better strengths, to be able to inspire, connect, in a one-to-many scenario. Because that's what I've been told, that's what I've experienced, whether it was my career as a facilitator, not one-on-one... One-on-one, yes, but what excites me most is one-to-many.
Rashmi Sharma:
I feel like apart from helping people, it gives me an opportunity to do things at a large scale, which is important for me.
Daniel Stillman:
Yes. I want to push back, if I can, on at least one way that you're thinking. Let me know how this sits with you. When you say, "I want to use all of me to help others," one of the ways that I think about an individual, we in fact contain multitudes. You have multiple stakeholders inside of you. I like to joke that I've got a fully functioning simulation of both of my parents.
Daniel Stillman:
And you also have your inner child and teachers, all the little memories along the way of different versions of ourselves. That's the all of you. You have to do that work on yourself to bring those pieces of you to the forefront, so that you can help others while helping yourself. You need to do that work and say, "What is it in me, what parts of me am I not allowing myself to tap into?"
Daniel Stillman:
So it's like using all of you to help others, you are one of the others. You are in that picture as well. Using all of you to help all of your others too.
Rashmi Sharma:
Yeah. I get it. I get it, but what does it mean... I get it at a meta level, but that does mean that I should follow my curiosity.
Daniel Stillman:
Very much so. Which you're doing.
Rashmi Sharma:
Which I'm doing now.
Daniel Stillman:
Look, at some point, I don't know what questions you're asking people as you're trying to understand what they need, what their experiences are with it. But going into your own experiences I think can help you find more impactful questions, to dig more deeply into what it means for them. That's one part of the equation, is trying to understand others, because I know you want to build community as part of this. But the other is, I think, focusing on your own work.
Rashmi Sharma:
Yes. But I feel like I am doing that. So then maybe I'll look at the... Right now asking questions, which are non-controversial. But maybe I should go deeper. Are you saying, for example, I felt unseen or whatever, those kind of things saying, "What does it mean for you if you don't attain X?"
Rashmi Sharma:
So first question I asked them, "What do you think of the word thrive? And what does it mean for you?" They say, "Oh, it's growth, it's growth with happiness. It's having courage." All of that. Should I go deeper, saying, "What does it mean then for you to not have it?"
Daniel Stillman:
Why is it important to you, let's say you had the perfect question. What would you get from these interviews with the perfect question? What would that enable for you?
Rashmi Sharma:
A new way of looking at... So the reason I started doing these interviews is because the person whom I'm working with and they said, "You need to find out what people think about it." And what are their challenges? What are the nuances around the topic?
Rashmi Sharma:
So the [inaudible 00:17:53] talking to people is to find what they think of it. I have gotten many definitions of thrive, of course, [inaudible 00:18:00] patterns emerging. But the objective is to find those patterns. And then use my keynote to deepen that, and to look at various contours of that pattern. So that's why I'm having those conversations.
Daniel Stillman:
So this is an interesting question, because you used the word deepen. I was thinking the same thing. It's like how do you take these conversations more deep? How do you really get to insights in those conversations about what thriving and living a balanced life means?
Rashmi Sharma:
Use probing questions. If they say something, I'm like, "Why do you say that? Would you have said that pre-COVID as well? Or has your [inaudible 00:18:45] changed after COVID?" I just use my gut instinct and probing questions.
Rashmi Sharma:
I asked them what advice they would give to themselves 10 years back. So these kind of questions. Is that okay?
Daniel Stillman:
Why is this controversial question in design research circles. Why can put people back on their heels. People don't often know why.
Rashmi Sharma:
Oh, why. Okay, okay.
Daniel Stillman:
If I were to give you advice, the much more effective is, tell me more about that, or can you remember a time when you felt that most acutely? Can you tell me a story about the last time you blanked? Can you take me there? Paint me the picture?
Rashmi Sharma:
I am doing that, and that's my second question, because actually a researcher told me that. So then they said, think of a time when you thought you were thriving according to your definition and then talk about it.
Rashmi Sharma:
So they tell me stories, maybe then I'm not getting the right thing out of that story, because that story is of course many things, story is about kids, story is about so many things. But maybe I'm not able to then understand how to deepen or pick out insights from that story. They are telling stories. But their stories are also very predictable.
Daniel Stillman:
That's something else that's happens-
Rashmi Sharma:
[crosstalk 00:20:36] a lot, and then one day I realized that I should take care of my health. Running in the morning, and now I can't live without my run, which is a great story. But it's also repetitive and it's also something I'm not able to take to another level.
Daniel Stillman:
So there's a couple of points here. One is that this is a great part of the research process when things start to feel repetitive. But that also means that you need to change your approach to find deeper insights.
Rashmi Sharma:
Deeper questions.
Daniel Stillman:
Well, the question of what depth in a conversation means, is an interesting one to me. I've written a little bit about it. But I'm curious what depth means, if you wanted to take people deeper than you have taken them already, or deeper into what? And how would you take them deeper?
Rashmi Sharma:
That for me is holding space, and creating a space where they can share. Sometimes I'm able to do well in the beginning of the conversation to create rapport, and they're generally more conducive, they're more open to sharing.
Rashmi Sharma:
In some conversations, they will answer the question and they'll stop, period. And I felt that I've not been able to have that connect. And maybe they don't want to share, but most likely, they've never thought about it and they don't want to think about it now.
Rashmi Sharma:
Some things, I let it go, but in cases where they are talking, for me, depth is about going into details, stories, and sharing what they feel.
Daniel Stillman:
Details and stories. What was the last one?
Rashmi Sharma:
What they feel.
Daniel Stillman:
So trying to understand more about what they were feeling.
Rashmi Sharma:
Yes. And also sharing if they were scared, and things like that, which they may not feel safe otherwise to share there.
Daniel Stillman:
Why scared specifically?
Rashmi Sharma:
No, not scared in the sense... Vulnerable. Because a lot of people I work with are leaders. They're extremely used to talking about the stuff with a very clinical lens. But if they can put that away and talk as people...
Daniel Stillman:
How have you been able to do that, to connect with them person to person? What's helped you to do that?
Rashmi Sharma:
Just general, because I know them through [inaudible 00:23:44], or I'll do a little bit of a intro, get to know. Sometimes our kids are going to the same school, sometimes. They're mostly from all India. I talk a little bit about me, why I'm doing it.
Rashmi Sharma:
I don't do anything specifically, other than the general context setting chitchat.
Daniel Stillman:
I would just invite you to think about how to intentionally set a space for depth. If that's what you want to design the conversation for, for depth, then the question of what would create the depth that I need? What would make it safe for them to go deep?
Rashmi Sharma:
Are there any things which I could explore?
Daniel Stillman:
I believe that creating safety for others requires creating safety in ourselves. And this is what we were talking about earlier is, we can only take people as deep as we are willing to go, as we have gone. And you can ask for and invite depth if you set the stage for it.
Rashmi Sharma:
For example, if I were to begin a conversation instead of saying, "This is what I'm researching," I could also talk about why I'm researching this. I could talk about what I told you in terms of growing up I felt like that. And this is why this [inaudible 00:25:29] really important topic. Is that a good thing to explore then? This is what you mean, right?
Daniel Stillman:
Well, what does it feel like? You imagine, with your own story, there's risks and there's potential benefits.
Rashmi Sharma:
I'm okay with risks. I talk about my story to anybody who cares enough to listen.
Daniel Stillman:
The only thing I would push back is, you obviously need them to be speaking within you, by a factor, 10 to one. So finding a way to say what you want to say, why leading a balanced life has been important to you, without tipping your hand too much. Because you don't want to color their responses over much. You want to find out what resonates with them and what their stories are.
Daniel Stillman:
So there's an edge of over disclosure, so that you then color what they're doing. [crosstalk 00:26:40] correctly, the goal here is you want to find nuggets of insight that you can use in your keynote to really inspire people and attract them to this idea, because you want to be a champion for this ideal.
Daniel Stillman:
What I want to close with, because I want to leave some time for us to check out is, looking at everything we've talked about, what would you want to look at as the most important question for you to ask yourself as you move forward with this project? Everything we've talked about, what's a question you want an answer to for yourself that will help move you forward?
Rashmi Sharma:
So for me to move forward in the sense, do another 10 interviews and have them go better than the last few, what I think I need to ask myself, how can I prepare my initial setup of the... How can I redesign my setup of the conversation, to make it immediately safe for them to talk to me about these things, and also redesign my actual questions?
Rashmi Sharma:
That's the question I would ask myself harder now. Because when I look back at my interview recordings, which I've been doing for the last four days, I feel like sometimes I'm rephrasing questions, sometimes I'm explaining the questions. I'm not coming across as very deliberate.
Rashmi Sharma:
So even though I did prepare an interview guide, I feel I need to relook at that, the setup, the questions. How can I immediately share with them where I am without speaking too much, so that they get it? They get it, the kind of conversation this is, immediately.
Daniel Stillman:
This is what I would call designing the invitation to the conversation, bringing them into a space that you are creating. It's a conversational space. And being super intentional about the design of that invitation is 100% powerful. You really have to dial it in.
Daniel Stillman:
If you over explain, you're going to get just what you're looking for. As you scrunch your nose. And you don't want that, you want to get what's really inside of them. I think okay it's to say, "This topic is really important to me. I really want you to be as honest and open as possible. I'd love to share some of my stories, but it's more important that I get your stories, so that I can use your stories to help inspire other people, that we can live a balanced life and be whole people."
Daniel Stillman:
Because of why you think it's important. You think if we don't do this, we can't have a balanced world. We can't have balanced lives. We can't have balanced families. That's what's at stake.
Rashmi Sharma:
Do you think it's okay for me to share that I'm doing it for a community or a keynote speech? Or do you think that just dilutes, or not dilutes, but that digresses from the main focus? It distracts.
Daniel Stillman:
I think ethically, it's important to let people know what you're planning to do with the information you're getting from them. When I started in 2016, I did four interviews with four people I really respected about conversation design. I was like, "I just want to have a conversation with you. I'm just going to record it for myself to get some insights about this idea." That was it. That was very clear.
Daniel Stillman:
And we had an hour with each of them, and we went really, really deep. I picked those people very, very carefully. I got insights that helped me be inspired to do my podcast, to do other things with the idea to write the book. But those guys framed those conversations very carefully.
Daniel Stillman:
I think it's totally okay to say, "I'm just trying to learn more about this idea from other people's perspectives." If that's all it is, then that's what it is.
Rashmi Sharma:
Is there any resource you've written or your book where I can see more of it?
Daniel Stillman:
I can share some resources about at least one way of thinking about depth from the book. But the key thing is, which I've been trying to do in our conversation, it's what threads you pull at in the conversation. And facts versus feelings, versus insights and potential. These are different things to ask about.
Rashmi Sharma:
I should focus on feelings more, generally.
Daniel Stillman:
I think you should focus on where they are, where they have energy, and follow the energy. And if I were to give you one piece of advice is, slow down.
Rashmi Sharma:
Just in terms of the pace of...
Daniel Stillman:
Slow yourself down, slow them down. The US Marines say, "Slow is smooth and smooth is fast." And slowness and smoothness allows people to get comfortable, to think, that means slowing down your own voice, which I'm doing now. It means making a little bit more space between your words, it means waiting a little bit between what they've said and your second question, your response.
Daniel Stillman:
I've had a couple of people on my podcast to talk about this. We can think, there's a lot of research on this, but people can think really fast, much, much faster than they can speak. We can only speak 125 words per minute. We can think at some people say 400, 900, 4,000 words per minute. There will literally always be more to say than people can say.
Daniel Stillman:
And so while active listening is sometimes derided as mechanical, it's really powerful to allow people to even hear what they said. Because they don't know what they said, and they don't know everything that they think. They can't say all that they think and that they know.
Daniel Stillman:
So one thing that I think can be transformative is just giving people a little bit more space and time to think, and reflecting back what they said. I imagine you're doing a lot of this. It's just about doing it with more-
Rashmi Sharma:
Intention.
Daniel Stillman:
More intention and more inner care. We have to check-out. What are you checking out of this conversation with?
Rashmi Sharma:
I realize that while I want depth from people, I'm not giving them depth. I go into the conversation trying to cover a lot in 60 minutes, because I literally, sometimes they have meetings after that, so I know it can go on. Sometimes I'm not doing active listening, because I know they have veered off and I don't want to interrupt them. But I also know that this is not something which is related to what I want to talk about.
Rashmi Sharma:
I also veer off sometimes because I know I'm recording it and I will go through it again. Even then, I think it's just the energy I could... As you said, I have to give them what I want to get out of them. So that's my biggest takeaway, that you made me realize that I'm not doing that.
Daniel Stillman:
It's work.
Rashmi Sharma:
It's work.
Daniel Stillman:
It's work to set up a space where people feel safe to be real. It's work to find the right amount to disclose to get what we need. I guess what I want you to remember is, why you're doing this. The interviews have a function and the function is insights, and the insights function is to inspire others and to build your keynote.
Daniel Stillman:
I would just suggest that I think, I hope you have, and if you haven't, I think you could write it now. You don't have to wait.
Rashmi Sharma:
Write the keynote or write the intro for the conversation?
Daniel Stillman:
Write the keynote. You don't have to wait.
Rashmi Sharma:
And that's going another down rabbit hole. Because I think somewhere I always have, "Oh, I need more information. I need more information. I need more information." If I do what I have now, people will like, "This is so obvious." And everybody knows that. I feel like, "Oh, maybe I'll do 10 more conversations, and I'll get a new angle through it."
Daniel Stillman:
I don't know.
Rashmi Sharma:
I know cognitively I'm hearing myself and I know what I would advise to my friend if she said that to me.
Daniel Stillman:
What would you say to your friend, if she said that to you?
Rashmi Sharma:
I would say that, I read a book and the book said women always do that, but there'll never be a perfect time and you've got to do it now. And last time you did it, you're better off, even though you're not perfect. So you just have to brace yourself and do it.
Rashmi Sharma:
And if people don't like it, they don't like it, at least you know.
Daniel Stillman:
I would say instead of, you don't have to brace yourself, you can love yourself. It's in you. What you want to say is in you already. The interviews will have a function.
Rashmi Sharma:
I guess I want to hear from more people because I don't trust that what I have in me is relatable for others. And there is no point if nobody else has that problem. You know what I mean? I need to choose a different problem to help people in.
Rashmi Sharma:
Because the idea is not to just share my story. I have other avenues to do that. I only want to share this if people find it helpful. So in a way, I'm [crosstalk 00:39:17].
Daniel Stillman:
[crosstalk 00:39:17] find out if people found it helpful, what would be a prototype and an experiment?
Rashmi Sharma:
So talking to people. Like in a startup thing, I spoke to, when we used to ask our mentor, how many potential consumers we should speak to, his answer was always the same. "More." But I think I've done about 13. I have another five slotted, which I'll redesign based on our chat. I think I'm getting to that place where I feel like, this is what people think about it. This is what people have a scope to go deeper in. And then I am getting that. I'm getting that confidence is what I'm saying.
Daniel Stillman:
If I were to push you, I would say don't wait. I think you could run a workshop on this, you can run a keynote on it. You would learn as much from that prototype, that experiment, as you will... It's not an either/or proposition. It's a both/and, it's an all inclusive, three pronged approach. I think it's really valuable to do the interviews and to try and get those insights and find out if it resonates, and find nuggets of insight.
Daniel Stillman:
And also don't do the thing that you just said women do, which is polish it to be perfect. I can't do this until I have three degrees. And that's not true.
Rashmi Sharma:
It is though, but it always [crosstalk 00:40:59].
Daniel Stillman:
What would your friend say?
Rashmi Sharma:
Obviously, if you're talking about vulnerability, you're not going to be Brené Brown. I would rather listen to Brené Brown than my friend talk on vulnerability.
Daniel Stillman:
Fair.
Rashmi Sharma:
But that doesn't mean she shouldn't do it, that doesn't mean my friend shouldn't do it.
Daniel Stillman:
If you've done one TEDx Talk, and you have, you can do another. You can write a talk about this. If you haven't yet, you can write this talk, and you can practice this talk. I imagine you will learn just as much from the people who come up after the talk, to talk to you.
Rashmi Sharma:
Yes, yes, yes. You're right.
Daniel Stillman:
You're right. I have to roll. Rashmii, thank you for this.
Rashmi Sharma:
Thank you. You know it's been a breakthrough for me.
Daniel Stillman:
Yay. Thanks for letting me be in service of you.
Rashmi Sharma:
Thank you so much. It was so good to speak to you. And yes, I will be in touch, I will keep you posted.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah, you're going to do the experiment.
Rashmi Sharma:
Yes.
Daniel Stillman:
Yes? Maybe?
Rashmi Sharma:
Yes, yes. No, no, I have a conversation tomorrow, 9:15 a.m., and it's 9:00 p.m. I'm just going to have dinner, sit, and I'm really excited to redesign this.
Daniel Stillman:
That's wonderful.
Rashmi Sharma:
I'll drop you a line how it goes through.
Daniel Stillman:
Me too. I'm really excited.
Rashmi Sharma:
Thank you so much, Daniel. Thank you so much.
Daniel Stillman:
I'll share this recording with you.
Rashmi Sharma:
How can I get this recording? Is it easy?
Daniel Stillman:
I'll just put it on the internet. I'll put it on Dropbox and then you'll take a look at it. Let me know if it's good and then we'll [crosstalk 00:42:59].
Rashmi Sharma:
Cool. All righty. Thank you, Daniel. Bye-bye.
Daniel Stillman:
Bye-bye. Take care.
Rashmi Sharma:
Thank you so much.