I'm thrilled to be able to share this conversation with Carrie Melissa Jones with you! Carrie is the co-author of Building Brand Communities, with Charles Vogl, and she's kind of a big deal in the community-building world. She's also an alum of the facilitation masterclass and a friend.
In this wide-ranging conversation, we dig deep on the subject of community as a conversation. As Carrie says, every community starts with a conversation, and conversations are what sustain communities and hold them together.
Some of what we cover in this 3-part episode:
What community really is, and how organizations get it wrong
The power of online relationships and how they can help us
How the community-builder affects the community
The inner work that goes along with community building, and how that affects brand communities
The conversation that launched a book - the story of Building Brand Communities
The difference between meaningful engagement and empty engagement
Why brand communities? What role do they play in rebuilding our social fabric?
How modern community-building efforts are still being shaped by outdated ideas
Part 1:
Part 2:
Part 3:
Links, Quotes, Notes, and Resources
Podcast episode: Being a Beginner is Often the Key We Need for Empathy and Creativity
Building Brand Communities, by Carrie Melissa Jones and Charles H. Vogl
The Power of Ritual with Casper ter Kuile
Minute 5
So I know that is possible to create long-lasting lifelong friendships through the internet. And that's basically what my drive to do this all day every day is, I know we can create meaningful relationships that sustain us that actually regenerate much of what's been lost of our social fabric and you know, through disconnection and technology and all that, we can regenerate it, but it's going to take massive culture level change. So right now I do that for organization. I hope to be able to expand that out and really be part of this culture level change over the long term as well.
Minute 9
And this is an evolving answer but I actually think that a lot of the reason for our disconnection and alienation and isolation from one another is economically created and was accelerated during the industrial revolution. So I work with organizations specifically because I see them as one of the root problems in our society causing this disconnection. And so if organizations are continually going out using the word community, which many of them are just using it, willy nilly, and then not backing it up with actions. What that does is it creates, it just wipes out what actually I've heard Casper say, community washing is what a lot of organizations do.
And at the organizational level, it means that they're not actually following up on what they're doing, or what they're saying with actions, because they're not working in integrity.
Minute 17
Organizations to me are one of the top culprits of like doing this wrong and creating some major, major issues. And I've worked with a variety of organizations, some of which are completely humble about this fact. And they say, "we want to do better." And then I've worked with really large organizations who one time a VP at the end of a four hour workshop said to me, "this is really nice and all but we're not going to do anything with this."
So she came to me in my program and said, "Carrie, unfortunately, I lost my job in the pandemic, but this is something I really want to build up my skills around online community building. I don't want you to give it to me for free. I want to be an investment. And what do you think about work study?" And I thought about the times when I used to do yoga in person, and there was always work study opportunities at my yoga studio. Anyone could come in and offer their services for free yoga classes. And so I thought, yeah we'll do that. I'll just make like a little yoga studio
Out of this. And with her, it was an organic process of, figuring out what do you want to do? Like what do you want to do with your life, your work, and how can I give things away for you to take on, to build up your skills? And now I have four different work study students. So I actually made it part of the process. And I think it's really important that I put that work study out there. Just like you put your scholarships out there because it's an issue of equity if we just keep it secret, like oh yeah if you ask me, I might give you a discount.
Minute 26
Daniel Stillman:
I was thinking about the places and spaces and the mechanics, but I really like that you went to the inner move or the inner move of being open. Being present and being aware of reciprocity. Which is, you can go to all the places and spaces, but if you don't have the inner move, then you're not going to be able to take advantage of it.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yeah. I think that's something I realized too, in the last few years. Because, in the past I might have said, "Yeah, well you go to Facebook groups." And then you go and here's all these tactical things. I can tell you, none of that matters. In fact, none of it matters. I think it surprises my clients because they realize that they must change in order to build community. And that's pretty huge.
Minute 36
Daniel Stillman:
but I think what's interesting here is, the question I was sitting with was, well, what's the most important conversation that the brand community isn't having and that you want to invite? And it seems like I'm wondering what the shadow is. And I'm seeing that that is of great interest to you. What aren't we talking about? What aren't we looking at is really important.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
I think that's what people aren't talking about is the inner work that it requires and the fact that it... Whatever issues you have around being in relationship with others, if you plan to build a community that issue is going to come up. So who you are is going to either accelerate or inhibit the community that you're able to build.
More About Carrie Melissa
Online community has helped me through some of the most challenging times in my life.
As a lonely, depressed and awkward teen, I discovered online communities as one of the only places where I could be seen, appreciated, and cared for by total strangers — who then became my friends. It was in virtual spaces that I first found confidence and acceptance. Over time, I was able to bridge the gap and bring that confidence into my “offline world.”
Online community started it all.
I credit these early experiences for laying the foundation for my skills leading communities. Every day, I see online spaces tearing people apart. I know we can do better, and I know the difference between genuine, meaningful community and community with no soul and center.
As the founder of Gather Community Consulting, I consult with brands and community leaders to build successful online communities. I am also a speaker and educator on the topic of online communities, community-based movements, and community leadership.
Prior to founding Gather, I was the Founding Partner and COO for CMX Media (acquired by Bevy Labs), a unique “community of community builders” that provided training, events, and programs for community builders around the world. I got my professional start in community management in roles with Socratic (AI-based education app), Scribd (online library), and Chegg (online book rentals).
In 2016, I was named by Salesforce as one of three experts to follow in community management, and my writing on communities has appeared in Venture Beat, Convince and Convert, The Next Web, First Round Review, and Creator by WeWork.
In addition to being passionate about helping organizations build communities, I’m a passionate advocate for community leaders.
I’m a graduate of UCLA and have done volunteer work for Young Women Empowered, Indivisible Washington, Emerge America, and Feeding America. I am currently an M.A. student at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, studying online communities and well-being.
Full Transcript
Daniel Stillman:
Well, then I'll officially welcome you to the conversation factory. Oh my God. It's really happening. It's you it's me.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
I'm so excited.
Daniel Stillman:
We're breaking the sixth wall, Carrie. You are. I love that you actually go for walks with a podcast. Where do you walk when you walk?
Carrie Melissa Jones:
I walk in Milwaukee. So I, Milwaukee. Yeah, I had to. Yeah, so I live about two blocks from Lake Michigan and I walk not, the exact same path every day, but close to it. And so I walk along, it's called Lake Park. It's actually where I got married last year. And so I look at that almost every day, like where we got married in the park and walk across the couple bridges, walk by a country club, walk under like, yeah. It's really beautiful and cold right now. Freezing.
Daniel Stillman:
Congratulations. I don't think I knew that you got married last year.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yeah, yeah.
Daniel Stillman:
I should have, I should have you were asking me about my honeymoon, which apparently I dropped lots of mentions of apparently.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
No, I was just, I knew you did something fun in 2021, which we all needed to do something fun, but yeah, I got married with three different ceremonies last year, so yeah.
Daniel Stillman:
What were the three ceremonies for?
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Well, pandemic related. I never would've. We never would've done that prior. The first one was legally. I didn't realize that getting married, you had to legally sign paperwork sometimes before, sometimes after the ceremony. Yeah. So because the courthouse was shut down in Milwaukee, you couldn't go and just get a judge to sign it. So we said, if we have to get this done, like we have to get someone to officiate for us. Like we might as well just make it a thing and let's just have a ton of fun. So we got married in the park and then went to our favorite restaurant and it was like, we just had a little private area. Then we did our vows and stuff in Colorado on the top of a mountain at sunrise. And then we did.
Daniel Stillman:
I do remember you talking about that. That sounds, so fun.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yeah, it was amazing with some of our best friends from childhood and his from way back and then had a party with family. So my parents were not, and his parents were not involved in either previous ceremonies, which they brought up many times. Yeah. So we did a giant party at my parents' home in east Tennessee and my dad and my family formed a family band. And they were like the music for the event.
Daniel Stillman:
That is so nice.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yeah. Yeah. It was very cute.
Daniel Stillman:
And you get to, when you go on your walk, there's this touchstone that just brings it all back for you.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). You see it change throughout the year, which I think is one of the most amazing things. If, you go to the same place in nature.
Daniel Stillman:
Yes.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Every day you see it through summer and winter it's just very humbling to see that happen, that change.
Daniel Stillman:
For me. I always, when I go for a hike and I see like a waterfall, I think to myself, this is always here.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yeah.
Daniel Stillman:
Even though I'm in my house, I can't hear or see the waterfall. It's just there.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Absolutely. Absolutely. I backpack a lot and went on a week-long trip in the Sierra's a few years ago with my dad, my brother and my partner. And we went to Thousand lakes in California. I think you can drive up near it, and I've had the exact same thought we saw it and it was just the most beautiful thing I'd ever seen. It took us seven days to get there and I just thought this is available to me at any time. But I stare at computers a lot and this is always here.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. Well that's, this is, this is a fine transition. You know, when you say, what do you do to someone and you're like, well, I look at computers all day long and that would be very nonspecific because like, and I write emails. I look at things.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yeah.
Daniel Stillman:
I, my friend Carl once sent me a mockup of a children's book. I think it's Richard Scarry, there are these little like anthropomorphic animals just going and the title of the book was remade to say "Documents". That's all we do now is "Documents". It just people, "Documents". So the better question, and this was actually the first question I had on my list was I wanted to try this one out, which is why do you do what you do?
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Hmm. Yeah. Why do I spend all that time? Staring at computers versus yeah. Staring at lakes. So why do I do what I do? So I build online communities with organizations and I didn't know that was a job, frankly. It wasn't a job actually for most of history. And I actually grew up being a super awkward, extremely shy kid. I had friends, but I was just very closed off. There was like a pane of glass between us. Right. And I really just didn't feel known or seen by anyone in my life. And when I was about, 14, 15, my dad gave me, I grew up in Silicon Valley, and my dad gave me this hand-me-down computer. That was like third, the one last in line that was like falling apart. And he said you can have this one. And I discovered forums.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
I discovered music forums primarily and found that I could create all kinds of incredible relationships with people. I could explore my identity, explore who I was, explore what mattered to me. And I really finally opened up to people on the internet before I ever did in real life.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
So I know that is possible to create long-lasting lifelong friendships through the internet. And that's basically what my drive to do this all day every day is, I know we can create meaningful relationships that sustain us that actually regenerate much of what's been lost of our social fabric and you know, through disconnection and technology and all that, we can regenerate it, but it's going to take massive culture level change. So right now I do that for organization. I hope to be able to expand that out and really be part of this culture level change over the long term as well.
Daniel Stillman:
And for people who don't know, I think I actually learned this statistic from Casper ter Kuile and his book about ritual. I think it was like, if you ask the average American, how many friends they have, or how many people they can call on when there's something going poorly in their lives, it's like three people and, or, or I think it's like two and it was three in 1980, whatever. And, and our conversation together, I was like, oh my God, everybody in America just like lost a friend in the last decade, like we had very few and now we have like barely any.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yeah. And it's two in five Americans, specifically, don't have anyone to go to in times of need. And I think about that all the time, because that statistic feels like really abstract and far away from me.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Because I now have very close friends and family people who I can go to in my times of need and I have gone to in my times of need. And so it is personally hard for me to imagine, that, but I know it's all around me. And in fact, I did a research study in graduate school last year. And we asked people about their connections during the pandemic and the statistic held true even among, it was a convenient sample, of most of my friends who are community builders. In aggregate about 20% of them had no one to go to in their times of need. And it just, I think about that, I actually know those people.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
It just breaks my heart,
Daniel Stillman:
It's insane. So, but here's the thing. And so the first big chunk I wanted to look at is, so this is why you do what you do.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Daniel Stillman:
In the broadest sense, but you could go do this for a brand. Right. But instead you are. I mean, for people who don't know, who are listening in Carries kind of a big deal, right, in this thing that you do. But you are, and you don't just do it for one company. You do it for lots of companies and that's a choice that you've made. And so I'm really curious because I make that choice too. I'm like, why do I do what I do? So if you take the same question and reframe it as a bewilderment.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yeah.
Daniel Stillman:
You know, I'm really curious about like why you're a, whatever you'd call it a Paladin, a consultant.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yeah. Yeah. I call myself a strategist or consultant. That's a such a good question. And one that frankly, I have wrestled with my entire career. It's like, why don't I just go and like teach people the skills individually, like how to be a better person on the internet. Cause I definitely can.
Daniel Stillman:
Just one at a time, don't be a troll, but you also teach cohorts of people how to do what you do and not everybody wants to do. So you were driven to have a whole business where you educate people and you work with many different types of companies instead of just, I don't know, going to build community at, fill in the blank, tech company.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yeah. Which, I did I started my career doing it in tech companies actually. And this is what I've kind of landed on for now. And this is an evolving answer but I actually think that a lot of the reason for our disconnection and alienation and isolation from one another is economically created and was accelerated during the industrial revolution. So I work with organizations specifically because I see them as one of the root problems in our society causing this disconnection. And so if organizations are continually going out using the word community, which many of them are just using it, willy nilly, and then not backing it up with actions. What that does is it creates, it just wipes out what actually I've heard Casper say, community washing is what a lot of organizations do.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
And at the organizational level, it means that they're not actually following up on what they're doing, or what they're saying with actions, because they're not working in integrity.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
And then at the individual level, we come to expect community from things that are not community at all. They're just audiences or one conference that a company put on and they're calling that community. And then we don't realize what we're missing, because that's what we think community is.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Organizations to me are one of the top culprits of like doing this wrong and creating some major, major issues. And I've worked with a variety of organizations, some of which are completely humble about this fact. And they say, "we want to do better." And then I've worked with really large organizations who one time a VP at the end of a four hour workshop said to me, "this is really nice and all but we're not going to do anything with this."
Daniel Stillman:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Carrie Melissa Jones:
I had flown across the country to, for her to tell me this. And yeah, it's just some people get it, and some people don't and it's a continual practice.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. I'm wondering how you, how you sustain yourself in, emotionally sustain yourself. I think this is one of the challenges of being a consultant is some clients really care and some clients are trying to do what I would call edutainment when they bring me in sometimes. And, I'm guessing the question I have is like, what's the conversation you're having with yourself about your business?
Carrie Melissa Jones:
That's a really good question. I am continually just trying to be aware of my capacity. And I often go over it, even with that awareness because doing this work requires empathy, just such deep levels of empathy that I can lose myself really easily in it. Cause I'm empathetic for the various stakeholders within the organization. Sometimes I'm very intuitive and I can feel sometimes people's trauma. I know that sounds really wild, but I feel them bringing it into the conversation. I'm sure you can sense all kinds of stuff like that.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah, people are so traumatized. I mean, let's just, I mean, obviously the last 3 years, but let's just talk about, the last 100 as you said, right. Being totally uprooted from what kind of lifestyle we're perhaps built to do. Right. There's a lot of traumas.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yeah. Yes, absolutely in the last three years, but even prior to that, there's just so much that goes on in organizations that people don't process and it becomes these scar tissue and they build from places of ego and trying to heal things.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
And I only know this because I have my own story of trying to do that right. It takes empathy on that level and then empathy on the customer or whoever we're gathering at that level deep empathy there. So I have to do less than I think I'm capable of. And I'm actually finding that year after year, I'm doing less work every year but I'm doing it better, if that makes sense.
Daniel Stillman:
It does. Yeah.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yeah. Yeah.
Daniel Stillman:
The word capacity is so fascinating. One of the things I actually was really interested to talk to you about, I was super grateful for the folks you sent over for the scholarships for the master class. And I was like, wait, Carrie's got this whole like work study machine underneath the hood. You talk about capacity, and I was like how does she structure the innards of this business? You seem to be, have a little minion.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Minions?!
Daniel Stillman:
I myself am good at just sort of like emergently, discovering all the things that need to get done and then just kind of doing them and then always remembering that there's something else that I've forgotten to do. I'm only just now learning how to explain what I intend to do and work with other people to help extend my capacity. I, it's a thing, I get it.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yeah.
Daniel Stillman:
I've never had to do that. You seem to have some of that a little bit more at your fingertips. So tell me about that, Carrie.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
That's so interesting that you would say that because I feel like I'm so bad at it. In fact, I feel that I'm, again, aware that this is an issue and so I bring it up with everyone that I work with. I say I'm really bad at receiving support. I'm not good at it because I'm used to being self-sufficient, I grew up and I solved my own problems. I got A's on my own.
Daniel Stillman:
Damn straight you did. Why was that important to you to be self-sufficient do you think?
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Oh, you want to, are you my therapist?
Daniel Stillman:
Sorry. I was that, I'm always, this is my mode. Whatever's, I'll take that back.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
It's totally challenging me. I mean that with love. It's a very deep question.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
I do that because it was a form of safety for me growing up, and I knew I couldn't depend on anybody else, but I could depend on myself.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
And that makes for a very strong person, right, like extremely resilient.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
And that's something I'm just aware, like whatever comes my way, I can deal with it, I know. My issue is that I then try to help other people on the path, so I'm always giving and often not receiving. And so a lot of community builders are that way. So I see it a lot in my work. And we often feel like we don't have a choice. We're like, I did this to myself. Like I've taken on these responsibilities, I can't ask anyone for help because I said, yes. So now I have to deal with it. I don't think that's true. I think it's a thing where people want to help us.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
They really really want to help us.
Daniel Stillman:
And so this is clearly an edge for you and your working.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Oh Yeah. The people that you spoke to that I referred your way, both brilliant community builders, actually one of them came up with the idea of the work study program. So she came to me in my program and said, "Carrie, unfortunately, I lost my job in the pandemic, but this is something I really want to build up my skills around online community building. I don't want you to give it to me for free. I want to be an investment. And what do you think about work study?" And I thought about the times when I used to do yoga in person, and there was always work study opportunities at my yoga studio. Anyone could come in and offer their services for free yoga classes. And so I thought, yeah we'll do that. I'll just make like a little yoga studio
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Out of this. And with her, it was an organic process of, figuring out what do you want to do? Like what do you want to do with your life, your work, and how can I give things away for you to take on, to build up your skills? And now I have four different work study students. So I actually made it part of the process. And I think it's really important that I put that work study out there. Just like you put your scholarships out there because it's an issue of equity if we just keep it secret, like oh yeah if you ask me, I might give you a discount.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
That's an issue of equity and privilege and it just causes all kinds of problems. So I was public about it. I brought on 4 work study students, and now I have a whole, I just wrote down all the things that I do and thought, what do I not need to be doing myself anymore? Yeah. That would teach someone else. Something I think is really easy to do that for them is an edge. And I meet with them once a week. I make sure that they're getting something out of it. So I mentor them all and we're just in a continual conversation and they all know I'm bad at receiving. So I say that to them, every time I give them something, I'm like, don't let me take this back from you.
Daniel Stillman:
That's wonderful. And that feels so normalizing to me, because I feel like I've expressed to people like, I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to do all the things that I'm doing. I recently just documented my process for the podcast. I brought on a process coach, Srinivas Rao, who's going is, I recorded his podcast. He has a podcast called the Unmistakable Creative.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Oh yeah.
Daniel Stillman:
And so he does knowledge management consulting. And I mapped out the whole podcast process and there was like this little swirl towards the end I knew about. And I was like, I have to do all this. And, Nathan who will listen to this, hi Nathan, who's my podcast producer assistant right hand guy, looked at the diagram I made in braille. Cause I sent it to Nathan before I sent it to Srinivas, and I was like, Hey, did I miss anything? And he was like, no, that looks about right. He's like, but that little swirl there, I can do that if you want. He's like, you just have to probably give me your login for those two, that site and that other site. And I was like, really?
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yeah.
Daniel Stillman:
I can just, I don't have to do that.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yeah. That's great.
Daniel Stillman:
And it's all also something that he, not that I don't think that's like, that's not his edge. That's not where his joy is. We, it's my job to find other things that are worthwhile and interesting for him to do so that it matters to him and he doesn't go away.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yeah. And then we also have to trust that people will say no, if they yes are at their capacity, we can't decide that for them ahead of time.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
That's not really fair. Yeah. And I get quite emotional about actually, like I brought on an assistant this last year and she's, she's so good. She doesn't even wait till I delegate things. She's like stop doing that thing. She's like, I guess this is exactly what I need. Thank you Jen. Yeah. But it makes me like emotional I'm even like tearing up about because to be supported in that way is so fresh for me. It's so new and it feels very healing, frankly.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. This is the conversation you're having with yourself about your business. Like what is mine to do? What is some, what can someone else help with help me with, do I have to be doing this? And I love that you've bringing in, you're bringing in somebody who can challenge you and say, put that down and walk away.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yeah. She's been doing this for like 20 years. So she's just like, why are you still doing all these things in your business? This will stop from growing. I've seen it over and over again.
Daniel Stillman:
The same thing for myself I've just noticed that talking to someone who's been doing it for 20 years, showing my process to Srinivas, who has a much more successful podcast than I do. I didn't actually feel any shame. Cause I was like, I'm clearly have hacked this together. You tell me, but there can be a lot of shame. I found of just like, I don't know how to do this. And I'm broken because I don't. So I'm, it's actually really, I'm normalizing for me. Thank you for thanks for engaging this conversation.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yeah, Absolutely. Yeah.
Daniel Stillman:
I am really curious. The, sort of like bow to, there was two more things about you that I wanted to plug away at. One is how you build your own community and mentorship. Because obviously you mentioned the community, people who have no community. And I feel like that's something you must be working at intently. How do you build that for yourself?
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yeah. For me it started in late high school that I.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
... started in late high school that I left the music forums, where I was a member for a long time and had learned all these social skills that I didn't have. And part of the reason I was able to leave and still feel connected to people was because of my very best friend still to this day, Samantha. And she came to me in her time of need and showed me what it looks like to ask for support when we were quite young.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
And so she's been my best friend through our entire lives at this point. Almost. Knowing that she's there is like this foundation that I then have of like, she's my safety foundation. Like, I don't know what's going to happen in my life, but Sam is there. And that's been really big for me.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
And the other thing is, again, something I'm not super good at, but making sure that I disclose information about myself and what's going on with me when someone else discloses this principle of reciprocity, which is like this human beings just want to be in reciprocal relationship with one another. But oftentimes I would listen to other people's problems, and then I would just not share anything going on with me, which of course you're like, moving along and developing a relationship and that just stops it from progressing.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
So, there's also times you don't have to share your story with anybody. You don't owe it to anybody, but if you feel safe with someone and you want to become better friends with them, you will have to share part of yourself with them. So there's no holding that back if you want to be close with someone in your life.
Daniel Stillman:
So it sounds like there's an inner move that you're focusing on. That some of your work is to make sure that you are actually being vulnerable.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Daniel Stillman:
With the right circle of people.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Exactly.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. The safe place.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Exactly. Because I will say, actually up to my late twenties, I had a lot of messy things going on in my life. And I definitely opened up to the people who retraumatized me. That's what we do, right? When we've experienced personal trauma, we just recreated it until we heal it. And so, you can certainly think someone's safe, who actually ends up not being safe to share things with.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
And so I think again, normalizing the fact that sometimes you're going to open up to people and they're not going to be good about it. And they might hurt you. And you might hurt them. And your relationship might not last forever. All that is just part of it. You cannot go through this life and not be hurt at some point. Like, you're not living. So I think coming to terms with that is deep work to do.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. That's really powerful. I think it's funny. I was thinking about the places and spaces and the mechanics, but I really like that you went to the inner move or the inner move of being open. Being present and being aware of reciprocity. Which is, you can go to all the places and spaces, but if you don't have the inner move, then you're not going to be able to take advantage of it.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yeah. I think that's something I realized too, in the last few years. Because, in the past I might have said, "Yeah, well you go to Facebook groups." And then you go and here's all these tactical things. I can tell you, none of that matters. In fact, none of it matters. I think it surprises my clients because they realize that they must change in order to build community. And that's pretty huge.
Daniel Stillman:
That is pretty huge. And it's very clear to me and we'll transition in a moment to talking about brand communities. It is a spiritual path for you. That it matters deeply because it's part of your core identity.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Mmm.
Daniel Stillman:
But I feel like I would be remise. The last thing we did together, the last time we hung out was this experimental online book swap. And I didn't realize. I think I learned from the interview you did with Charles. Was about, that you've been passionate about books since you were a teen.
Daniel Stillman:
And I'm really curious for you to talk about, because the community, we think like, "Oh, it's people and divulging." But a book is the safest trend.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Oh, I know.
Daniel Stillman:
Right?
Carrie Melissa Jones:
I love books.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. So I'm curious, how do you feed your head and what books have nourished you and are nourishing you? I probably won't do anything with this video, but there on that bookshelf behind-
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yeah. There's behind me-
Daniel Stillman:
[inaudible 00:28:02] Jones. Our books.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
I have a book shelf over there, bookshelf downstairs. I read all the time. I read a lot less fiction than I used to. But growing up, well actually in college I studied English literature and I studied abroad in Stratford-upon-Avon in London. I saw the real Shakespeare group.
Daniel Stillman:
Wow. That's amazing.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
It was so cool. James Franco was in my class. I don't have to talk about that right now, but.
Daniel Stillman:
No. Let's get read of that.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
So, I have been escaping I think through literature for a long time. Growing up, my favorite author was William Faulkner. So I was always very dark and wanted to explore the shadow sides of things and find poetry in the attempts to have language express what our world is and what our identities are. But constant failure.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
I actually have a tattoo on my arm that says, "I'll do what little I can in writing." Which is from a book by James Agee, who's from East Tennessee, where my family is from.
Daniel Stillman:
Wait, can you say that quote one more time? I went by fast.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
I'll do what little I can in writing.
Daniel Stillman:
Tell me what that means to you. That's so interesting.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yeah. So in the 1920s, there's a history. In the 1920s in America during the Great Depression, the south was obviously hit horribly by the Great Depression. The entire system of share cropping, which is what had cropped up after slavery and plantations and all these things in the south, basically turned into a giant exploitation system of share cropping farmers who could not get out of debt.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
So they were in horrible situations, horrible poverty. And James Agee was a journalist. I think he was sent by Fortune magazine in the 1920s to go live with a family in the south. In their decrepit farmhouse. And he was sent with Walker Evans, who was a famous photographer from that period too. He took those New York subway photos that are really famous.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
He went with them. So then a photographer and a reporter were sent to live with this family and write a very short article for a magazine that people on the west and east coast would read, that taught them what's going on in the south. And how bad is it there? This kind of sensationalization.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
And he went and he refused to write the article. Because he was there and he ended up staying longer. And he said, "I can't. You want me to write 400 words on what people are going through here? That's not possible." He goes on for like 10 pages just saying, "If I could, I'd give you their clothing. Pieces of their hair. I'd give you the smell of the dirt. I'd give you the sound of the creaking on their front porches. But I can't give you any of that. So I will do what little I can in writing."
Daniel Stillman:
Wow.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yeah. I wrote my thesis on that book in my undergraduate.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. I can feel the import of it.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yeah. So, that's how I read all the time and it's funny. I wrote Building Brand Communities with Charles and I don't know that I would ever read my own books. Because I mostly just try to read things that are much broader about human nature.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. What would be the two books that you wish that everyone in the world would read? If it's now your book obviously.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
That's really hard.
Daniel Stillman:
I know it's hard but you got an answer.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Oh man. I will probably take this back, once I think about it in a while.
Daniel Stillman:
Hot take.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yes. I will say that Macbeth is my favorite Shakespeare play and that is something everyone should either watch one of the movies or remakes of it or read it yourself. I have parts of it memorized because I'm just so obsessed with it. And let's see.
Daniel Stillman:
I don't have Macbeth outreach candle. That's the famous bit from it. What did Shakespeare say? What is your substance? What have you made, that millions of strange shadows on you tend. What is the little substance of Macbeth that you wish everyone would be able to touch?
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Um, well there's the one monologue where he, goes tomorrow, tomorrow, tomorrow.
Daniel Stillman:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Carrie Melissa Jones:
[inaudible 00:33:11].
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yeah. And he basically wraps up all of life by saying that life is full of sound and fury signifying nothing. It's obviously very depressing.
Daniel Stillman:
I'll do a little like hand in writing. I see the connection.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Exactly.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. All right.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yeah. I never made that connection myself. Yeah. I think it's just humility in the face of, we are such small creatures, and we're given one life to live, so don't kill the king. [inaudible 00:33:48].
Daniel Stillman:
Okay.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
It's not going to end well for you.
Daniel Stillman:
No, it won't. So Macbeth. Amazing choice. I love it. And what else do you wish that everyone would just pick up and read and spend some time with. Take a bath with.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
The other one is probably one of the books I recommended during the book swap. Which is the Body Keeps the Score. And that's not a book I would read in the bath.
Daniel Stillman:
No? Okay.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
No. It's about how trauma lives in our bodies.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
And I think if everyone read that book or knew about Bessel van der Kolk's work, we would have a deeper understanding of how little, what my friend, Nicole, calls little t and big t trauma. Little t is the trauma that all of us have. The everyday trauma. Just living. And then big t trauma like being in a car accident. In my case, being in a horrible relationship. All kinds of things like that.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
So we would understand how that's actually, until we heal it, it's living in our bodies. And we are recreating it and often recreating it in relationship with others. As my therapist says, that wounds created in relationship must be healed in relationship. We cannot heal our wounds that were created in relationship with people by of going inside and trying to fix it. Even therapy won't really solve it.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
The only way is to work through that in relationship to other people. And that's what communities can be for us, is a place where we can finally heal that if the community is healthy and doesn't recreate the broken structures that rest of the world has.
Daniel Stillman:
So I think there's a perfect time to transition. I'm going to reset the clock. This is what every facilitator goes through. Right? It's like, but this is good stuff.
Carrie Melissa Jones:
Yeah.
Daniel Stillman:
I do want to make a break and we want to talk about brand communities but I think what's interesting here is, the question I was sitting with was, well, what's the most important conversation that the brand community isn't having and that you want to invite? And it seems like I'm wondering what the shadow is. And I'm seeing that that is of great interest to you. What aren't we talking about? What aren't we looking at is really important.
Daniel Stillman:
And so with that, we'll magically transition to chapter two.