Leading Deeper Connection — The Conversation Factory

I'm really excited to share my conversation with Kat Vellos, an amazing designer of experiences.

Today we talk about the art of intentionality and the power of hearing yourself say something you've never said before. We also dive deep into some of the incredible insights in her book, "We Should Get Together: The secret to cultivating better friendships”

One of the things that I loved from the book was Kat's powerful metaphor about "hydroponic friendship," and how you can create a supercharged connection through intentional vulnerability and shared experiences.

She draws on her long-time experience as a facilitator and designer to create what for me was one of the big "Aha!" moments: hydroponic friendship requires a container, and that's one of the things that leaders can do to design experiences: They can create the container.

A container can be the question that starts the conversation, the invitation to the party. In Improv, it’s called the “Magic Circle” - the place where new rules and ways of being apply, the “game world”.

While Kat's book is about designing friendship in our lives, she points out that connection in one part of our lives leads to connection in all parts of our lives. We’re experiencing loneliness and disconnection not only in our everyday lives but at work... and work is where we spend a lot of time.

Kat and I unpack four powerful facets of leadership:

One: the ability to design experiences - the ability to bring people together to have a shared, transformative conversation.

Two: the ability to be flexible on outcomes while still being aligned on a larger goal. This is one of the most powerful Design Thinking mental models: focusing on needs instead of solutions.

Three: We also explore an absolutely fundamental capacity of leadership - the ability to listen and connect with people, deeply.

Four: Kat also points out that actually doing something with what you’ve heard is the last, most crucial component of leading and caring for a team.

I'm thrilled to have connected with Kat, and excited to share her work with you. I highly recommend reading her book "We Should Get Together" and its addendum, "Connected from Afar," which is filled with ways to create more intentional connection in your life and your work - it was written during the height of the pandemic, so the tools are all zoom-friendly.

Also, make sure you check out the links below to some of her other projects, and to her amazing post on 40-plus alternatives to "How are you?" with different versions for work and everyday life. Enjoy the show!

Support the Podcast and Get Insider Access

LINKS, QUOTES, NOTES, AND RESOURCES

Kat's Alternatives to "How are you"

Kat's Website

We Should Get Together by Kat Vellos

The problem with how are you: brightsiding!

Inspiration

Friends: Understanding the Power of our Most Important Relationships: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08W4XPK7G/

https://www.antionettecarroll.design/

https://www.creativereactionlab.com/

Minute 1

the post you're talking about, which was a month's worth of alternatives to asking how are you, a different question for each day, and then the work version upon request of a reader out there really came from my own internal frustration with this question, particularly during the last year of the pandemic. It's not that I'm opposed to people checking in on each other, it's not that I'm opposed to people caring about each other; that is not the basis of this frustration.

But I wrote a blog post that really accompanied this. It was like 40 plus alternatives to how are you? And here is why. Part of the reason is that on a personal level, me, as an individual... I'm not saying this for everybody. I've always had a challenge with that question because it is so broad. And the other challenge that I have with that question is that particularly in the United States, the question "how are you?" is used as a greeting and not really as a question. And then as using it as a greeting, it also has a pre-supplied set of acceptable answers, which are, "Good, fine, how are you?" And so it's this perfunctory performance of a check-in, a perfunctory performance of a question that actually is not a question when it's used as a greeting. As a word nerd and someone who really cares about authentic connection, I find that irritating. And I also don't like the social expectation to just say, "Good," or, "Fine," when maybe I'm not good and maybe I'm not fine. And answering that question honestly would seem like some kind of breach of social contract to actually say, "Really stressed out; kind of falling apart right now."

Minute 8

Whenever we bring a very intentional practice to designing, whether it is boxes and arrows and technology for people to interact with or it's conversations like you're describing, or if you're designing a building or if you're designing a city or if you're designing your outfit of the day there's an element of intentionality to it. Because that is a part of who I've always been and I've applied that practice in a variety of different mediums, I still do identify as a designer. I know there are a lot of product designers, digital designers out there who only consider someone a designer if they're pushing pixels; I think that's a really limited definition of design.

Minute 16

it's often something that I think gets overlooked when people are thinking about wanting more friendship in their life or if they're feeling lonely. And I sometimes talk to my coaching clients about this is, "how are you showing up for yourself right now? Are you being a good friend to yourself? Are you being a good listener to yourself?" And it often gets put in the same category as "self-care," and it goes beyond just buying a bath bomb and taking a bubble bath.

While valuable and delightful, also, are you doing the things for yourself that you would love for a really good friend to do for you? When we talk about listening skills, it would be really nice to have someone who listens really well. Well, what are you doing to listen to yourself? Journaling, as I mention in Connected From Afar, is a really powerful tool, particularly expressive writing as designed by James Pennebaker and crew. This is a really, really valuable tool to process challenges, struggles, emotion, vulnerability, and to then get to a place of learning or perspective or at least getting out of a feeling of stuckness with a challenge or an experience. And so I've always been a writer in addition to a designer, although writing was not always the basis of my day-to-day work like it is more lately. Writing is a really, really generative, powerful tool. I consider writing to be a friend of mine. When I think of what are the intangible friends that support me in living my life? Writing is one of them.

Minute 24

One of the things people really want the most that is lacking in their work life or personal lives is the experience of really being listened to, and the experience of really being listened to can contribute to the feeling of being cared about. And if you've been listened to and you've been cared about and you see any supportive action taken on the things that you have shared, then that's a demonstration of the listeners commitment to their care for you. It's not just one step, and often that first step of listening is what's missing, therefore it's harder to then be cared about and it's harder then, for whatever actions and evidence you're seeing in the world, to feel connected in any way to what your needs and feelings are as an individual human being.

Minute 26

And this is usually not what makes it to the boss's boss's boss's ears, it's when people speak to each other and it's one person saying, "I don't want to go to this mandatory happy hour on Wednesday night. I need to pick up my kid from daycare by 4:30 and I have to give them a bath and help them with their homework and be doing my job as a parent." Being forced to stay at work or to figure out a sitter or to figure out how to pay extra for the childcare, that actually does not make them feel good. Even though they might enjoy the happy hour or the game night or whatever it is, the lack of concern, the lack of listening about what they need and what might actually help them more and feel better is completely missing.

And this goes all the way from every kind of thing, from introverts and extroverts to people who want to do public performances like karaoke and people who are mortified to feel like doing karaoke's the only way to get on the list for a promotion next season. There's not enough listening and flexibility to accommodate the fact that people need and want different things to feel connected, heard and seen, and some people... There's just not going to be one answer for everybody, and the lack of adaptability, flexibility and accommodation is what often leads to frustration.

Minute 44

Well, one thing that we didn't talk about, and I'll just briefly touch on it, is to say if there is anybody listening who has a curiosity about this, about learning how to be a better friend or learning how to cultivate more connection in your life intentionally, I would say go for it. Whether you read my book or other books that are out there or you take a class or a workshop, the benefit is not just for you, the benefit is also for each person that you then get to interact with and befriend. And the usefulness of learning how to feel more comfortable and capable in these kinds of interactions is that it doesn't just change, oh, your friendship with Mary or your friendship with Bob or whatever; it will also change the other areas of your life.

MORE ABOUT KAT

Author of We Should Get Together: The Secret to Cultivating Better Friendships which was called “marvelous” by BookLife, a subsidiary of Publishers Weekly, and which Kirkus Reviews compared to the work of Norman Vincent Peale and Cicero. Since its release in January 2020 — and with the addendum Connected from Afar: A Guide for Staying Close When You're Far Away — both books have been helping adults around the world form deeper platonic connections and heal from disconnection and loneliness.

Creator of Better than Small Talk, which has created connection for hundreds of people across the San Francisco Bay Area and beyond, helping people get closer to their friends and loved ones. An avid workshop facilitator and experience designer, Kat brings two decades of experience creating powerful positive communities where people find belonging and authentic connection.
User Experience and Product Designer who has researched, designed, and advised on the user experience of countless flows in digital products serving millions of people at Slack, Pandora, and multiple Silicon Valley startups. In addition to her design work in the corporate sector, Kat also has almost multiple years of experience designing powerful and effective creative empowerment programs in the education and nonprofit sector as well.
Founder and Community Leader of Bay Area Black Designers, a company-agnostic employee resource group that exists to provide meaningful community to Black design professionals who want to support each other’s growth and development. BABD members work at startups, agencies, design studios, universities, midsize companies, and large corporations. BABD provides professional development and community for Black designers, especially those who know what an isolating experience it is to be the only Black designer in their company or design team.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Daniel Stillman:

Okay, well then Kat Vellos, I welcome you to The Conversation Factory officially.

Kat Vellos:

Thanks, Dan.

Daniel Stillman:

I'm really excited that you made the time. Thank you, I appreciate it.

Kat Vellos:

Thanks so much for inviting... Oh.

Daniel Stillman:

It's okay, we're just going to have high collaborative overlap on both side of-

Kat Vellos:

Yes, I love that description from your book. High collaboration, high overlap. Yes, it's great to be here. Thank you for having me.

Daniel Stillman:

I'm really excited to have you because your work is so interesting, it's so broad. I feel like there's so many places we could start the conversation, but I'll start where it started for me which was seeing your grid of all of the alternatives to How Are You? that you had made that went, I don't know, kind of viral. And when I re-posted it, a lot of people liked it, so I think it's awesome. And then you made another one for work. Can you talk a little bit about your experience with the question how are you? And what are some of the challenges around it?

Kat Vellos:

Absolutely. I love that question as a alternative to how are you? as well. Yeah, the post you're talking about, which was a month's worth of alternatives to asking how are you, a different question for each day, and then the work version upon request of a reader out there really came from my own internal frustration with this question, particularly during the last year of the pandemic. It's not that I'm opposed to people checking in on each other, it's not that I'm opposed to people caring about each other; that is not the basis of this frustration.

Kat Vellos:

But I wrote a blog post that really accompanied this. I was like 40 plus alternatives to how are you? And here is why. Part of the reason is that on a personal level, me, as an individual... I'm not saying this for everybody. I've always had a challenge with that question because it is so broad. And the other challenge that I have with that question is that particularly in the United States, the question how are you? is used as a greeting and not really as a question. And then as using it as a greeting, it also has a pre-supplied set of acceptable answers, which are, "Good, fine, how are you?" And so it's this perfunctory performance of a check-in, a perfunctory performance of a question that actually is not a question when it's used as a greeting. As a word nerd and someone who really cares about authentic connection, I find that irritating. And I also don't like the social expectation to just say, "Good," or, "Fine," when maybe I'm not good and maybe I'm not fine. And answering that question honestly would seem like some kind of breach of social contract to actually say, "Really stressed out; kind of falling apart right now." And during the last-

Daniel Stillman:

You're like, "Oo, awkward. Didn't really want-

Kat Vellos:

Awkward. Yeah.

Daniel Stillman:

"... an actual answer."

Kat Vellos:

Didn't want to hear the truth. And so during the last year of the pandemic and the social uprising around racial justice, there were many days where I was not "good or fine." And each time I got asked that question in that expected way of you're just supposed to say good and fine and move on, it did more and more highlighting the fact that it was not appropriate to share what was real and true and that this question, which is a meaningful question and a powerful question if meant intentionally, was actually just a throwaway set of words.

Kat Vellos:

It's too vague, it's too dictated by what's an acceptable answer? And it can also be triggering when someone's in a time of crisis or stress. Someone's just like, "Oh, how are you?" It's kind of upsetting to realize you can't tell your whole truth right then because it might be awkward or they're not ready to really hear it or they don't have the capacity to really hold your truth. And so it's a tough one and I think especially in challenging times it can be loaded. And it puts the burden on the person who is being asked that question to explain themselves to the person who asked it, and they may really not be in the mood to explain themselves to that person. There's a whole lot of mental gymnastics around it, and that was all the basis of why I was like, "Here's a bunch of alternatives, because I feel this way," and it just so happened that thousands of people who saw that post were like, "Oh my God, this captures my feelings too."

Daniel Stillman:

Where I really loved about it... And thanks for giving that broad overview. When I looked at that grid, I thought to myself this is what I mean when I mean designing conversations. Designing the invitation, setting the stage for the kind of conversation you want to have, it's a type of design. When we were connecting before we started recording, saying, "How are you really?" Is providing the opportunity for somebody to say how they really are or saying, "Hey, what's lighting you up these days?" Is asking someone to talk about what's on the bright side of stuff, which it's choosing the conversation I want to have.

Kat Vellos:

Yes, yes. And I think that the addition of the word "really" is a part of making it safer for someone to then know I don't just have to say good or fine and leave it at that, I can actually say, "Wow, I think my dog is really sick," or something, "and I'm really worried about them." Or you can say something that gives more context about how you are really and to know that the person asking that question is more prepared to hear any answer because any answer is acceptable if they really want to know how you are.

Daniel Stillman:

Yeah. Yes. And this also speaks to one of my favorite invitations on Twitter, which is for people to give only wrong answers for something.

Kat Vellos:

I love that.

Daniel Stillman:

How are you really? Wrong answers only.

Kat Vellos:

I think you'd get a lot of good and fine there as well.

Daniel Stillman:

Yeah, fine, good.

Kat Vellos:

I'm great.

Daniel Stillman:

Awesome. All right, let's get to the agenda. Weird pivot. And this is the kind of emotional agility that's required to be alive in 2021 as a person. My answer to that question of how are you? is it's a strange time to be alive, which is my way of allowing other people to go, "Oh, yeah, okay, thanks."

Daniel Stillman:

I'm curious about so many things, but you are a... I assume you identify still as a designer. Is that true? Do you identify as a design person?

Kat Vellos:

I do. Do you still identify as a a designer?

Daniel Stillman:

Well, I do in the broad sense of I still get people on LinkedIn trying to get me to design bots for them because I call myself a conversation designer. I'm like, "No, no, you should actually look at my profile. I design human conversations, not human computer conversations." I guess what I'm curious about is the river of your journey from designing experiences between a person and a company mediated by a piece of technology to designing human-to-human experiences with the kind of love and intentionality that you clearly bring to it based on what I've read about you.

Kat Vellos:

Thank you. Yeah. Part of the reason why, yes, I still identify as a designer is... And I talked about this in an article that was in Communication Arts magazine last summer where they were profiling designers, and in my definition of design that I give, it's that it's the practice and the art of intentionality. Whenever we bring a very intentional practice to designing, whether it is boxes and arrows and technology for people to interact with or it's conversations like you're describing, or if you're designing a building or if you're designing a city or if you're designing your outfit of the day there's an element of intentionality to it. Because that is a part of who I've always been and I've applied that practice in a variety of different mediums, I still do identify as a designer. I know there are a lot of product designers, digital designers out there who only consider someone a designer if they're pushing pixels; I think that's a really limited definition of design.

Kat Vellos:

And also, from the early 2000s I've been a facilitator as well and a convener of community spaces and IRL interaction design, and so when doing that kind of experience design for the real world, for human-to-human interaction, for change then, yes, three is still absolutely that same process of intentionality that I would bring whether I was designing screens and flows for an app or what is the process that should happen for humans who arrive on this day and time at this setting and they stay for anywhere from three hours to 10 days? What should happen for them over the course of that time? And I've designed for that scenario as well, and so we typically call that facilitation or experience designer. Experience I know something gets mixed up with user experience designer, which is the digital wing. And I do both, and I've done both for a very long time. I've also been a graphic designer.

Kat Vellos:

I think it's more exciting, honestly, to live in the world when we have that lens of anyone can practice this, sort of similar to the idea of creativity. I don't only thinks someone's creative if they have gallery paintings hanging on a wall that they sell for thousands of dollars. I think anybody is creative. Everyone has the ability to accept their innate, internal creativity just like all kids have it, and then we grow out of that as we get older. And similarly, I think everybody has the capacity to bring an intentionality to the practice of whatever they're trying to create in the world.

Kat Vellos:

There was another quote I really liked in your book that said... You'll probably remember it better than I can, but it had to do with saying that it's designing a conversation to get the expected outcome, the change the existing conditions into preferred conditions. That is the thing.

Daniel Stillman:

Yeah, that's the classic Herb Simon definition. I sometimes ask people who gets to make things worse on purpose? And who-

Kat Vellos:

Tricksters.

Daniel Stillman:

Yeah. Well, and some of us can make things better by accident, but the ideal is to make things better on purpose. But I love the idea of intentionality is a much more beautiful word-

Kat Vellos:

Thank you.

Daniel Stillman:

... to describe the act of trying to create an experience for other people to have a transformation of some sort. There's so many layers to unpack here because I'm wondering... I have some of the frameworks that you have from your book, which everyone should read because I think beside the fact that it's beautifully illustrated, it's beautifully read, and it's an important idea. I'm wondering, as a design person, what are some of the frameworks or mindsets or mental models that you've taken from your user experience design world into your humans in a place and time, what my friend calls meat space, to meat space design? In what ways do you feel like you are doing the same thing through the same eyes?

Kat Vellos:

Good question. I think that because I see a lot of overlap, as I mentioned, with facilitation and user experience design... I wrote a, ages long ago, medium post about why these two would get a 90% match score on OK Cupid.

Daniel Stillman:

That sounds amazing. And you're also dating yourself by referencing OK Cupid, which is amazing.

Kat Vellos:

I know, and I'm totally into that because then my people know I'm their people. Yeah, there is a huge overlap in the way that we question what is the ideal path or outcome for someone to experience here? What are the different realities that they're showing up with? What are the considerations that we need to make around accommodations or accessibility? How can we make this usable and pleasurable for as many people as possible for them to achieve the intended outcome or the intended experience? And so having that mindset, whether it's for meat space or pixel space, I think it's the same to me, it's the same to me, and that's probably why... I was a graphic designer in... That was my college degree. And then I did that for awhile, and then I did facilitation. And then when I found UX Design, I was like, "Oh, this is the same thing. This is what I've already been doing." And dating myself further, UX Design was not a major that you could have when I went to college.

Daniel Stillman:

No.

Kat Vellos:

There was no smart phones and social media, all the things that we have nowadays, and so it was a completely different world. And when I met UX Design, I was like, oh, this is literally just the digital version of the same kind of practice that you would bring to designing experiences for facilitation or other kinds of meat space experiences for human-to-human interaction. Obviously there's more to it than that and some learning I had to take on and certification and whatnot, but there's just so much similarity, again, in that envisioning who the people are that you are there to serve? What is the outcome you hope to achieve? What is your attitude towards experimentation and testing and trial and error and figuring out and adjusting the flow that you've designed? so that it can continue to be welcoming and accommodating to the people who are literally there and also get them to the goal at the same time.

Daniel Stillman:

Yeah. Sometimes I use the term empathic walkthrough. A customer journey map is such a powerful idea in the user experience design world; the ability to put on the glasses, the mental model of a person who's not you and to take a step-by-step walk through what you think they will experience is, I think, a very similar... is what I'm hearing in what you're saying. Who is this person and what's going to happen and what's going to be their experience? And can I then adjust on the fly based on what I'm learning from them or not?

Kat Vellos:

Mm-hmm (affirmative), right. To me, it's always been an exciting and a challenging practice. And it's a space where I can feel both confident and insecure at the same time because the exciting and confident part is having the vision and having the opportunity to say, "We're going to create a thing together. We're going to create an outcome and an experience. Let's do this together." And then the part of it that feels a little bit scary or insecure is there's things that we can't predict that are going to happen and we're just going to have to trust all of our intuition and training and gut and collaboration to figure our way out when that happens because there is always the unexpected. That's where the nervousness comes from. Oo, this is exciting. What's going to happen? And it could be better than we expect and it could be worse than we expect, but let's go find out.

Daniel Stillman:

Yes. It's funny, I wanted to get to this question much, much later, but something that I try to teach folks that I'm coaching on facilitation is the importance of being a friend to ourselves, managing ourselves through this experience while we're trying to create an experience for others. And I feel like you addressed this question a little bit in Connected From Afar where you talk about journaling and being intentionally intimate with ourselves. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts to share about the importance of... I want to talk about being friends with other people and the power of that, but there's also the aspect of am I a friend to myself?

Kat Vellos:

Yeah, that's a big one, and it's often something that I think gets overlooked when people are thinking about wanting more friendship in their life or if they're feeling lonely. And I sometimes talk to my coaching clients about this is how are you showing up for yourself right now? Are you being a good friend to yourself? Are you being a good listener to yourself? And it often gets put in the same category as "self-care," and it goes beyond just buying a bath bomb and taking a bubble bath. Are you doing-

Daniel Stillman:

While valuable-

Kat Vellos:

Daniel Stillman:

Yeah. I think that's so beautiful. I don't know if you've read The War of Art. I feel like I'm permanently halfway through it.

Kat Vellos:

Steven Pressfield.

Daniel Stillman:

Yes. There's this-

Kat Vellos:

It keeps getting recommended to me. I got to finally get to it.

Daniel Stillman:

Well, there's this moment where he... The visual that I'm remembering is him setting up the things on his desk. There's this little cannon that he points towards him that's supposed to point good ideas at him; just this little moment of... When I was writing my book, I opened up Oblique Strategies. I don't know if you've ever played with oblique strategies they're from... Brian Eno made this list of... There's some apps. You can buy a deck of cards if you like holding cards. It was a list of oblique strategies, weird prompts to get you to think differently about whatever problem you were solving, and he used them to write music with. I would just look at an oblique strategy just to twist my brain a little bit before I sat down. When you were writing your book, what did you do to be a friend to yourself to get through the process? Because it's a hard process-

Kat Vellos:

Interestingly-

Daniel Stillman:

... at least that was my experience.

Kat Vellos:

For me, I worked on this book off and on over five years, and in a way, getting to work on the book felt like being a friend to myself because there was this curiosity I had around this question of friendship during adulthood and why so many people that I was meeting and who were coming to my events and gatherings for connection were saying that they were having a hard time making friends. It puzzled me because these were really lovely people; they were fabulous to talk to great person. There was no reason why they should have a hard time making friends.

Kat Vellos:

And so my curiosity around what is it that is getting in the way for people? is something that felt like a source of energy and curiosity. I just kept wanting to follow that thread. And in a way, giving myself the opportunity to explore that question and to study it and research it and interview people and dig into the academic research as well around connection and friendship; it was a sort of play for me because it was so different from my day job. It had nothing to do with my day job at all, and so it was my project that I was interested in and constantly wanting to go and dig in and play on, and so it was that. When I started doing that took it to another level of play or exploration for me because, originally, I didn't know I was going to write a book; I was just writing on this topic over and over and over again. And then I was like, huh, got a lot of content here. It was a book.

Kat Vellos:

And in the process of doing that writing, sometimes I would read a certain academic study or have a response to an article I had read or an essay I had written or someone I had interviewed and the only thing that could capture all of the feelings in experience of that was a drawing because words, 1,000 words, pictures; you get it.

Daniel Stillman:

Yeah, I do.

Kat Vellos:

And so I would do these little cartoon drawings to capture some of these moments, and that level of play for me was just taking it even further. It was like, oh, this is actually just really fun for me to get to make these doodles that nail a lot of these experiences that we have with adult friendship. That really was it for me, was because it was not the thing I was "working on," it was not my work, it was my play.

Daniel Stillman:

I'm really curious because it's becoming your work now.

Kat Vellos:

Now it is. I've got to find other things to play. Seriously.

Daniel Stillman:

Yeah. There's a few things I want to pull on because from the perspective of a designer and me and the work I did in terms of what are we designing when we're designing these experiences and conversations? I love that you have this metaphor of hydroponic friendship and the four seeds, which I look at as levers we can pull. It seems like when you're creating these shared experiences and intentional vulnerability - I think I can pronounce that correctly today - you're pulling on the levers of proximity and commitment to create that supercharged connection, as you referred to it.

Daniel Stillman:

I guess the lens I want to unpack that through is leadership as the art of designing experiences for others, because I know you do keynote and talk to companies about this. Because we spend so much of our time at work, it seems to make sense that we should know how to create these moments of connection.

Kat Vellos:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, I hope so. In the ideal situation, that's what leadership delivers for people, and it's done in a way that makes the experience magnetizing rather than mandatory.

Daniel Stillman:

That's a really great heuristic, because I think a lot of people rely on mandatory "voluntolding" people to do things. When you are trying to help a leader or an organization, what are some of the seeds that you try to plant with them so that they can transform people from being disconnected to feeling connected?

Kat Vellos:

Daniel Stillman:

When I look at the arc of the thread that's holding that together - listening, feeling cared, action, showing commitment - this is the arc of the experience that we're designing. I think we often think, oh, it's an icebreaker; let's have a happy hour, let's play a game together. But what you're talking about is actually connecting with the people that we serve and then doing something about what we've heard, which is pretty fundamental.

Kat Vellos:

And in doing so, if there's true listening happening and true care, if you have a large enough group of people, one thing you're also probably going to discover is that people don't all want the same thing. People don't all feel cared about in exactly the same way. There's a reason why Gary Chapman's Five Love Languages is a bestseller around the world because it captures the fact that people need different things to feel cared for, to feel cared about.

Kat Vellos:

In a work setting, when I think about how do we create connection? What's going to make people feel connected? Maybe what you need is to actually let people know that you are listening to them as individual human beings, you hear their needs, you hear their desires, and you're willing to be flexible in how you supply the solutions so that there isn't just a one pill that's going to meet everybody's needs perfectly and everybody take it and therefore check the box, it's done.

Kat Vellos:

I've worked with so many people who have been my colleagues and peers who've expressed frustration to me. And this is usually not what makes it to the boss's boss's boss's ears, it's when people speak to each other and it's one person saying, "I don't want to go to this mandatory happy hour on Wednesday night. I need to pick up my kid from daycare by 4:30 and I have to give them a bath and help them with their homework and be doing my job as a parent." Being forced to stay at work or to figure out a sitter or to figure out how to pay extra for the childcare, that actually does not make them feel good. Even though they might enjoy the happy hour or the game night or whatever it is, the lack of concern, the lack of listening about what they need and what might actually help them more and feel better is completely missing.

Kat Vellos:

Daniel Stillman:

Yes. You know what's amazing? What I'm hearing is in the situation you're setting up and the lens you're bringing to it; one of the classic [designerly 00:28:17] ways of thinking... [Designerish 00:28:21]. The difference between needs and solutions. And the desire to uncover unmet needs is a very... I don't think many people realize that this is a core UX passion, and that when we think about design and designing things, I think that people think about the creativity and the making, but designing experiences for other people means deeply understanding what they actually need and then, as you said, being flexible on the outcomes, not being restrictive on, well, what we're going to give you is a happy hour, what we're going to give you is a means away, an affordance for feeling blank; whatever that thing is that we've identified.

Kat Vellos:

Yeah, and understanding that there are so many ways to meet a need once you fully understand it; it doesn't just have to be the cookie cutter thing out of the box that everybody does. And if you invite other people to help define and decide what would help meet that need and make it a collaborative process rather than, as you said, volant hold, they're more likely to want that outcome than if they're just told and forced to do the thing.

Daniel Stillman:

What you're outlining is a type of experience-driven empathetic leadership that also values co-creation and what we would call user input. This is not this is what you've got, it's being in conversation with them through the process.

Kat Vellos:

Absolutely.

Daniel Stillman:

That kind of leadership takes a certain type of, I would say, intestinal fortitude, a kind of bravery. I think a lot of people feel afraid to ask, to open up these conversations with people because they can't do everything that they're going to want.

Kat Vellos:

Sure, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. You know another designer who is... talk about leadership in this area is Antoinette Carroll and the creative reaction lab, which is all about that participatory design, it's all about you must invite in. It is only responsible to invite in the people that you're "serving" to help also create the solution that is for them.

Daniel Stillman:

Yes. Yeah, I agree 100%. Well, because otherwise its design is colonialism.

Kat Vellos:

Exactly.

Daniel Stillman:

It's pushing something onto people without them pulling it, being part of what's being created for them. There's this quote that you mentioned before we started our conversation; the best thing... And I don't know if I said it or where it came from. We'll just pull it from the ether again that hearing yourself say something that you've never said before, the idea of designing for surprise, for designing for moments of delight where... One thing I'll say, it's been really enjoyable to interview because I feel like some people have talking points and I feel like you are expressing ideas in the moment, which is delightful to me, so that's... we'll just put that there on the side.

Kat Vellos:

Thank you.

Daniel Stillman:

But I feel like this act of designing experiences for others in this context of listening, making them cared for, taking some action co-creatively with them and committing, there is this element of surprise, of expecting to be surprised, which seems to be an important lever of creating this kind of connection. I don't know, I feel like I'm running on. I don't know if that's a question or a comment at this point. I don't know if you can make anything of that. I'm trying to chip away at this idea of how does this surprise element come into this process of designing experiences for others? For everyone's benefit.

Kat Vellos:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). I think that what it is is inviting the opportunity to experience togetherness in a new way, in an unfamiliar or nontypical way, let's say, because it's not necessarily that it's like, oh, I'm trying to design for surprise, because there's a lot of things you can do that are surprising that are really unpleasant. I could be like, "Surprise, here's a pie in your face." That's not actually fun. It's not just about, oh, I'm trying to make a surprise happen; that's not the core of it for me. But I think what it is, and what's at the core of that quote for me is when we show up in an experience or a conversation and, to use the words of that quote, hear myself saying something I'd never said before, what happens for me, personally, is a feeling of being alive in the form of words. I'm alive in my body, I'm alive in my heart, I'm alive certainly with my mind running all the time, but when I hear words coming out and I'm so present and so fully immersed in the experienced, that is a feeling of being alive, and it is in the intangible experience of trading words in a conversation back and forth.

Kat Vellos:

And that presence and that connection, when it's happening, Dan, to me it feels like a type of flow. When we talk about getting in flow state and sometimes it's Dan saying, "We're making art," or whatever, but being in a conversation where that happens where it literally does feel like a type of flow, that energy between you and me, time is suspended, our attention is here, it's effortless, it's magnetic, it's just time is irrelevant. Hours could go by, I have no idea how long it's been, I have no idea what day it is, but that energy that is happening that is being maintained and created by the two of us in that moment is that feeling, to me, of flow, and I think it can happen in a conversation. And I think it is surprising because that is not what conversations normally feel like everyday all day long. And when it does happen, my God, it's like a type of joy. It is so beautiful.

Kat Vellos:

And I think then when we talk about what does it mean to design a conversation or design for that to happen? I think it's creating the conditions that hopefully... You can't guarantee. People got to show up with who they are and be ready to go into that experience. But if you can create the conditions of suspended reality in that experience, maybe then it's more likely to happen. And when it happens in a room, I've seen it; it feels contagious in this beautiful contagion of joy and openness and presence and togetherness.

Daniel Stillman:

I'm curious how you... because I know you create experiences where people come together for intentional vulnerability, to create a shared experience, to get connection, to make friends. And I'm looking at this quote that I pulled out from your book about we can adjust how we show up for each other. The idea of being intentionally vulnerable; how do you feel like you lead people into that space? How do you get them to open up in that way, to show up for each other in that way?

Kat Vellos:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). One of-

Daniel Stillman:

Because commitment is how do you twist the knob of commitment?

Kat Vellos:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). One of the very first things that I learned in my training as a facilitator had to do with creating the container, creating the space, physical space, energetic space. What is the actual container that we are going to occupy? And what is it made of? And how do the community agreements that we set up as the walls holding us safely inside, what are the social contract that we enter together and that we invite everybody else to enter into together as well to help create that experience? To share here's the goal we're trying to get to, here's what the desired outcome is, and can you all say yes to participating in getting there by doing these things together? And those are the agreements that typically are unspoken, and I think to some detriment I think it's useful to speak them aloud or to have even visual representation of them to say, "This is what we're agreeing to do together. And if we do these things together, it will be easier for us then to have this experience or reach this goal together. Will you say yes? Will you help create this with me?"

Kat Vellos:

And in doing so, it's not just the facilitator who's responsible for making that happen, it is everyone's job, and it's everyone's opportunity and responsibility. And to hold that space together, to hold that container together with each other; that is where... that's the very first agreement that you make, and that's the beginning of transforming a generic gathering or a generic meeting or a generic workshop or a generic dinner or whatever into something different. And when we all know that this is going to be different and here's what's "expected/asked/magically presented as the opportunity to do together," we could say yes. And then in stepping into that alternate reality of that experience, things can be different, therefore maybe you can be more vulnerable here, maybe you can say the thing that you've been thinking about and haven't told anybody for months, maybe you can listen to somebody in a different way, maybe it's okay to cry in front of someone you've never talked to before. All of the maybes suddenly become possibilities, and that possibility can take shape in reality because, again, of that mutual, dedicated commitment as a group to make this thing together. Do you get what I'm saying?

Daniel Stillman:

Oh, absolutely. It's funny because I made a sketch of the hydroponic friendship bottle, and of course the bottle is the container. It is the power of drawing that circle and inviting people to step into it I think is absolutely profound.

Daniel Stillman:

Okay, so sadly our time together is growing to a close and I feel I would be remiss if I didn't ask you to say, at least briefly... because I know you've made these experiences in person and you've also done them online. And everyone's in this place and we're... I think it's a fundamentally transformative shift to this space where we'll be for some time. What do you feel is the same about creating these experiences in this remote space or virtual space versus doing it in three dimensional, four dimensional space?

Kat Vellos:

Good question. As somebody who has done IRL gatherings, experiences for so long, since the early 2000s, it was unwelcome for me to be like, "What do you mean I'm going to do this virtually? Excuse me?" But very quickly adapt, adjust, change. And it felt like the most unique design constraint I'd ever met in my life, which was we're going to be together without being together. And as you know, constraints are the workspace of creativity.

Daniel Stillman:

Oh, yeah.

Kat Vellos:

What do I think is the same and what do I think is different about it? Well, I'll start with difference first because the first thing that comes to mind, certainly just pragmatically one of the things that's different is the fact that we can get together with people who are not in the same physical proximity. I've had people join workshops that I have done over the last year from what feels like every continent, dozen upon dozens of countries, different time zones. The ability to reach and connect and serve so, so many more people in so many different parts of the world is profound. That is so absolutely different. And it's also better for the environment to do this virtually than for me to take plane trips to 70 countries to do this. And so just on a practical level, the opportunity that we have to reach each other and to find each other via the joy of the internet is just a huge plus and a wonderful thing that I've gotten to say yes to in my work because it's just opened so many more doors for connection and reach and all of those things, so that's a major difference. That is also, I think, a big plus.

Kat Vellos:

And something that I think is the same then in getting to do that is it is possible, certainly as I talked about describing how we create a container together, create an alternate reality together. When I do workshops and gatherings online, I often try to speak directly to the fact that even though you're joining on... Let's say it's possibly the same computer you just sat in a bunch of meetings for work in, or you're using Zoom, which maybe in your head you compartmentalize as, oh, I'm at work now because I'm in Zoom. I want you to step away from your computer, shake your body, walk around and come back and let this be new, let this be a new experience. Mentally shift out of that space.

Kat Vellos:

And there's things that you can add in to, again, as a facilitator to break that norm so that it doesn't just feel like, oh my gosh, the same old, same old. But yeah, that's a different thing that I think is a challenge because when we're IRL, I have the ability to say, "Come to this address at this time and date," and when you walk in the room, you know that's not your office. I can create an environment. There's flowers on the table when you walk in, and pre-COVID if people want a welcome hug and it's mutual and consensual, you can have a welcome hug.

Kat Vellos:

There's just things that are different that are not so great. I really liked doing face-to-face work for so long, and I hope to do it again at some point when it feels safe and for it just to be so easy. Time, I think, is experienced differently online as it is in person. I think it's easier to get quicker closer in person when you can make eye contact, when you can see the small shifts in someone's facial expression or how they hold their body in their chair or how they move through the room. There's just so many subtleties of being in face-to-face space, meat space, that makes certain things easier, certainly.

Daniel Stillman:

I love that all of those examples you've brought are focusing on some of the opportunities in both of these contexts. I know that definitely has created a lot of stress for people. And as you reference yourself, the shift is not without its learning curve. But we accept the joyful acceptance of constraints and working within them, as you say, may be the most [designerly 00:44:23] of mental traits.

Daniel Stillman:

We are sadly at our closing. It's a delight. I would like to ask you what haven't I asked you that I should ask you? What remains unsaid that ought to be said about your work and some of the things we've talked about?

Kat Vellos:

There's so many things, Dan. I could seriously talk to you for hours.

Daniel Stillman:

Ditto.

Kat Vellos:

In the book Friends by Robin Dunbar, famous psychologist who came up with Dunbar's number, he categorizes all types of relationships as a type of friendship. When I read the book, I was fascinated by this. Even family he counts as a type of friend. And when you think about how to be a better friend, what you realize then is the potential is you have the chance to transform and improve your connections in all areas of your life, whether it's siblings or your partner or colleagues or strangers because they're all some type... They're on some kind of spectrum of friendship, and you have the ability to impact them in all areas of your life.

Kat Vellos:

If this is something that you're curious about or you're interested in, even if you're not having a "friendship problem," still do it because it's kind of like if you take a class in communication skills and you get better at communicating, guess what; you're probably going to be a better communicator in every area of your life. It's not only at work that that will matter. And so I would say the benefit there is honestly a completely holistic one, so go for it. And if anybody wants to keep up with me and the work I'm doing, I'm on the internet, I'm easy to find. As I mentioned-

Daniel Stillman:

You're on the internet?

Kat Vellos:

I am.

Daniel Stillman:

What? Right now.

Kat Vellos:

I'm out there. I'm in the computer.

Daniel Stillman:

You're in the computer right now.

Kat Vellos:

Inside the computer. As you mentioned, I do keynote talks and leadership talks and certainly collaborate with companies and associations on bringing some of these skills and awarenesses to your staff or your leadership teams or your association community; all of these things, I'm here to serve, here to speak, to collaborate, to create experiences together. Find me. I'm at katvellos.com, or weshouldgettogether.com, I'm on Twitter, I'm on Instagram posting my doodles. Find me. Let's do the thing.

Daniel Stillman:

Well, I think that is a great place to end. Kat, thanks for being in conversation with me today. It was delightful.

Kat Vellos:

Same, Dan, so delightful. Thanks for having me.

Daniel Stillman:

We'll call scene and-

Kat Vellos:

Scene.