On today’s episode, I talk with Cameron Yarbrough, the Co-founder of Torch, a leadership development platform integrating coaching, behavioral science, and agile feedback. Cameron is also a licensed therapist and prior to starting the company, applied his knowledge and learnings to executive leadership coaching, working with high profile founders like Reddit Co-Founders Alexis O'Hanian and Steve Huffman, Founder of Twitch, Justin Kan, Partner at Y Combinator Gary Tan, and a bunch of other well known startup founders.
Cameron offers some deep insight on how to step up as a leader and as a coach of leaders. We also dive into the challenges of designing a product for multiple customers and needs - his platform, Torch.io is designed for Learning and Development leaders to set up programs, and also for coaches and coachees to have a streamlined experience...all while working to deliver insight on the ROI of coaching - both top line and bottom line impacts on the business - spoiler alert - it’s a hard thing to do, but worth it. Why?
We close the interview with a Carl Jung Quote:
“Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.”
Cameron offers:
“To me, this is a perfect reflection on what it means to really look at your blind spots. If you do not look at your blind spots, if you do not do the painful hard work of bringing in, bringing attention to your blind spots, those blind spots are going to run your life and you're going to call it fate.”
That is what having a coach can do for a leader, and what a facilitator can do for a team, to be sure.
Cameron also shares his insights from his experiences in Zen philosophy and Psychology and puts much of modern facilitation practice in a larger context and history from T-Groups at MIT in the 1960s to Stanford’s Graduate School of Business’ Interpersonal Dynamics course today.
Enjoy the conversation.
Links and Resources
Torch on the internet: torch.io
Twitter at @torchlabs
Cameron on twitter @yarbroughcam
On users, customers and power: Chelsea Mauldin, Executive Director, Public Policy Lab IXDA 2017 Keynote: Design and Power: https://vimeo.com/204547107 (ff to 7:00min for the “good part”
Stanford GSB Interpersonal Dynamics Course
More About Cameron
Cameron Yarbrough is the Co-founder of Torch, a leadership development platform integrating coaching, behavioral science, and agile feedback. Cameron is also a licensed therapist and prior to starting the company, applied his knowledge and learnings to executive leadership coaching, working with high profile founders like Reddit Founder Alexis O'Hanian and Reddit Steve Huffman, Founder of Twitch Justin Kan, Partner at Y Combinator Gary Tan, and a bunch of other well known startup founders. This is how Torch was created- Cameron wanted to create a streamlined process integrating a tech platform and real leadership coaching for executive level employees and founders. Check out this article to learn more about Cameron: https://techcrunch.com/2019/08/19/breaking-into-startups-torch-ceo-and-well-clinic-founder-cameron-yarbrough-on-mental-health-coaching/
Full Transcription
Daniel:
I will just officially welcome you to the conversation, Cameron. Thanks for making the time.
Cameron:
Thanks, Daniel. I'm really excited to be here with you and I'm looking forward to this conversation.
Daniel:
Thank you. So you know, I press myself to start these conversations differently every time by not planning out what my first question is going to be. Recently, I was in a conversation with some other facilitators and we had a conversation about what our most powerful question was. Do you have a favorite question that you ask people? A deep question?
Cameron:
I like to ask people what are your blind spots or what do you not see about yourself that you need to be seeing?
Daniel:
Can people answer that?
Cameron:
It's a koan, right?
Daniel:
Yeah. Can you say more about that? Not everybody is a as steeped in Zen. Perhaps ...
Cameron:
If you knew the answer, then it wouldn't be a blind spot, right? So what it inspires is a deep inquiry as opposed to any answer. I think that that's the spirit Buddhism and Zen in particular. It's not ... as soon as you believe that you have the answer, you don't. So the idea is to keep the mind in this state of looking and curiosity and openness.
Daniel:
I think that's really beautiful. It's funny because I recently said to somebody, the one thing you can't do is make a list of all the things that you would never think of because obviously, if you made a list of them, then you would have thought of them. Well, so this seems to lead into the importance of coaching and being seen, right? Like the importance of another person seeing you and seeing what you can't see or what you're not seeing. Talk a little bit about why coaching is important to you and then we'll hopefully lead into connecting that to what you're doing today.
Cameron:
I think that inquiry and personal growth has been an important driver for me in life since I was a child. I first went into therapy when I was six years old and I continued it into adolescence and adulthood and then I discovered mindfulness meditation and then I became a business person. I also pursued a clinical degree and a clinical practice myself. The thing that kind of holds all of these themes together for me is a path of inquiry and that is what is really, really behind a great coaching experience. That is the core of the formula.
Daniel:
It's funny because my mind is firing in a lot of different directions because I was ... I was raised by a family of meditators and was initiated into meditation when I was probably slightly too young for it potentially. I'm just amazed to see how mindfulness has become more and more mainstream. There's parts of that that seem really great to me that I've heard some vintage facilitators who are facilitating groups in the '90s saying it was just hard to even get a group to sit in a circle. Like you couldn't get a group to just like, well wait, why are we doing that? And now I can do a somatic check-in at a large corporation and people don't really bat too many eyes, which is extraordinary. What do you attribute that to, and have you noticed that yourself?
Cameron:
I certainly have noticed it. I think that there were a lot of early adopters around say say group discussions and inquiry and vulnerability, but a lot of those, that culture really kind of sprang out of psychotherapy circles and it sprang out of like the hippie movement and there was a lot of overlap there, but it was very much siloed from the business community. Okay> I think in the last 20 years though, you've started to, we've started to see those boundaries dissolve. I think there are big movements that have made that happen. I think, for example, Burning Man is one of them. If you just look at the way that spirituality and plant medicines and a great have entered the Silicon Valley, Burning Man as a kind of a melting pot and a place where business people and Bohemian people kind of come together and now the blind has blurred, right?
Daniel:
Yeah. It's so interesting. So let's loop back then because I want to connect self inquiry to leadership. Before we got started, we were talking about some of the really, really serious challenges that are ahead of us as, you know, a human race. Why is it important for leaders to be developing themselves? Why is it important for leaders to be inquiring into themselves and doing that work? Why is that work important now?
Cameron:
I think it's the primary way that humanity is really evolving today. If you at look at ... biologically, we're really, we haven't really evolved much in like the last hundred thousand years, right?
Daniel:
No.
Cameron:
But I think in terms of the way that humanity is really evolving now, it's in terms of awareness, of consciousness. I think that in order for us to solve these tremendous problems that we're facing in terms of artificial intelligence and automation, in terms of climate change and in terms of social inequality, these are massive problems that are vexing humanity. I think in order to solve those big problems, we actually have to be involved. I just think that that consciousness is the way that we are evolving to face those challenges as opposed to say biologically.
Daniel:
Yeah, and this just goes back to that fundamental, I mean was it Einstein who said it, like you cannot solve a problem with the same approach that got you into it, and it's really core.
Daniel:
I was vaguely aware of Torch before we got introduced. It sort of floated in and out of my consciousness. When I was looking at your website to prepare for our conversation, there's a quote, there's a statistic that's way up at the top about how leaders fail 18 months into their promotions, like on a fairly high average. I think that was from a McKinsey report. I'm wondering like, is lack of inquiry part of that? What are the factors, what is your experience about why that is happening? Like why leaders when they get bumped up, are they falling flat?
Cameron:
There's a really interesting concept that comes from the field of psychology called Peter Principle. It basically says that every person rises to the limits of their own incompetence. I would say that, that ceiling is created by your blind spots, right? So in order to really scale as a leader, you have to be taking very direct action to bring light into what you don't see about yourself. The problem is, is that's a very painful process. To actually take a look at your blind spots requires a lot of discomfort, right? Most people don't do it so they rise to the point of their own, the ceiling of their own incompetence and they fail. So what it really means to scale as a leader is to be bringing consciousness into your blind spots and stretch.
Daniel:
Yeah. My mother, who listens to this podcast, used to say the ceiling becomes the floor. As you evolve as a person, like whatever you tapped out at, when you sort of pop up to the next level, that becomes the foundation. More is required of you, more is asked of you, which is crazy and tired. Like literally as you were talking about the blind spot, I can feel the discomfort in my body because I feel like, at least for myself, I'm constantly trying to evolve, and boy, is it a pain in the butt. It's, be much easier just to take a nap, all things being equal.
Cameron:
One example of that is, you know, we have a product called Our Leadership Assessment. It's really a 360-degree view of your leadership behaviors. You take a survey and then there's a series of emails that go out to people who know you within your organization and then they also deliver feedback on what it's like to work with you. Okay? Sometimes the feedback is really positive and sometimes the feedback is negative. It's a painful experience because you're not going to like the negative feedback that you hear from your colleagues, right? But the reason is because usually what they're pointing to is your blind spots. You don't see your blind spots, but other people do see your blind spots. So unless you take direct action to do something like a 360-review or to participate in a T-group like we were discussing earlier, like Stanford GSP, the T-group experience is really important for helping business people learn communication skills. Unless you're participating in coaching, getting 360 reviews regularly, getting therapy, participating into your ... you're not going to see your blind spots, right? And you're going to avoid seeing your blind spots because it hurts, and that's the truth.
Daniel:
It does. So can we ... let's talk about operationalizing it because ... and there's a lot of pieces to peel apart because we're taking this very organic process of here's all of the stuff that's come out of the 360, here are all of your blind spots, and we're trying to help large organizations provide as many people as possible with these kinds of resources, which means we can't just have a haphazard approach. We have to have a design approach to it, and that's what I think is so fascinating about Torch. You've designed a process by which you can scale coaching, which is a hard thing to do.
Daniel:
Let's talk through the layers of user experience in the product, because there's the individual coachees, there's the coaches' experience, and then there's the person who's managing it, their experience. There's layers of dialogue that are happening throughout the whole product.
Cameron:
I'll start with the person who is the champion of the engagement within the organization and that is usually a head of learning and development. Typically, the needs or the pain points of a head of learning and development is they're working with limited resources and they're charged with distributing, learning and coaching and mentoring resources across a broad population. Okay?
Daniel:
Yeah.
Cameron:
They've got ... and every single person is unique, so they've got to configure a learning path maybe for a VP that might look very different from say a new manager. A lot of these learning experiences happen in groups, so it becomes a very complex to administer. One very important thing that we're building at Torch is a platform that allows heads of learning and development to organize and configure to a high degree of accuracy learning paths for all of their employees. Okay?
Cameron:
As a part of that learning path, they will typically access our pool of coaches or our pool of mentors to help support people and their unique learning experience. All of this starts from the view of the head of learning and development, right? Now, from the user experience, typically what that person is needing is something that's customized from a product standpoint so curriculum and programming that is actually, that meets me where I am and then an interpersonal experience or a matching with a live coach or mentor who's really, really going to get me. Those are the two things that the user really wants and needs. At torch, what we're building is something that pulls all of that together.
Daniel:
I assume the coach's side is ... sorry, in UX we have a slightly and like getting light hives when we talk about users because only drug dealers and user experience designers talk about their customers as users. So like I'm just going to, I apologize for pushing back on this because I think it muddies the situation because the head of learning and development is also a user of the system. They are configuring the learning paths and then the coachee enters into that system and along their path, they get connected to a coach. That's some of your magic is that you've got a pool of ... I mean I was looking at them, they look like super bad-ass people, to help those coachees along that learning path presumably. So you're designing, you have to design their experience as well, obviously. Speaking as a coach, doing it myself as a pain in the ass so it sounds like doing it through you is seamless and wonderful.
Cameron:
Yeah. To use your language, every single employee, whether you're a brand new manager or whether you're a senior VP, everybody needs that bad-ass person to work with them, right?
Daniel:
Yeah.
Cameron:
I have my bad-ass person and she's amazing. Then our brand new manager at Torch also has their bad-ass person. On top of that, you need curriculum that meets you where you are in your own learning path. So that's that's the whole system. And I appreciate the pushback on the term user. That's interesting. I'm making a note of that [inaudible 00:15:24].
Daniel:
Yeah. Sorry. Sorry not sorry. It was a couple of years ago in the UX. It was like this, this clarion call to UX at the IXDA conference in 2017 somebody gave a talk, and I'll have to look it up, where they said that there's the owners of the system are actually the people who, like the bus driver actually owns the system. The riders actually own the system because they're the ones who actually enliven it and occupy it. Then there's the controller or the designer of the system. What I think is really interesting is how thoughtfully you're designing the experience of the head of learning and development because they have a lot of ducks to try and get into a row and your product is a way of them just to design that conversation in a way that is easy for them and that it just flows.
Cameron:
The interesting thing about heads of L and D is there's a lot of unique pressures on them. Sadly, they tend to lack influence within the organization and this is something that greatly needs to change. So you've got a person who will lack influence but then has a lot of pressure to develop the employee base, right? Then they've got to fight for the resources to get it done. There's a few ways that we're trying to empower them. One is through better reporting. So if you empower a head of L and D, what do they need in order to get influence and to fight for more budget, a really important part of that is very clear and definable ROI or return on investment, right?
Daniel:
Yeah.
Cameron:
We put a lot of resourcing and design, a lot of design resources into reporting so that our heads of L and D can then go and win the budget that they need in order to continue their initiative.
Daniel:
What are the metrics that are, that matter to report? Because I know that when I'm talking about learning and development initiatives that I'm involved in, there's like completion, but showing impact is often really hard.
Cameron:
It is challenging to measure but this is something that we think a lot about at Torch. One is completion, right? But you know, completion isn't enough. Interesting thing about completion rates, e-learning completion rates are typically very low. They're in like the four percentile, four, 5%, right? But learning experiences that come with a live human being are in like the 90 percentiles, right? So completion rates are really a lot higher when engaging with a live person. So ... but that wasn't your question. Your question was what are the things that heads of L and D are wanting to measure, right? So completion rates, are people actually changing? So behavior change is another one. And is the business seeing the kind of outcomes that it wants out of that behavior change? This is where it gets more complicated, right? Because it's complex, it's challenging to attach business outcomes to behavior change.
Daniel:
Right, because there's so many factors. It's just the butterflies flying everywhere and you can't give them a 360 every week to get that, the cadence of that dialogue, to use my language, it's like you can't ... I mean, what is it? Is it three months? Is it six months? Like what's the periodicity that you can retest on some of that stuff that's coming out of the 360?
Cameron:
You can retest people through 360s and pulse surveys, but really, that's primarily measuring behavior change. Okay? What becomes more complex and one of the problems that we're trying to solve at Torch is how do you tie that behavior change to real business outcomes, right? Things like retention or employee retention.
Daniel:
Sure.
Cameron:
Top line and bottom line. Those are the kind of big metrics that CEOs really care about. How do you tie behavior change at the employee, individual employee level to two big outcomes like that.
Daniel:
See, this is so interesting because where my mind is going is like how, in what ways do you work with the leaders to change their perspectives on what leadership means so that they begin to value these other human parts of things? Because just focusing on ROI is one of the challenges with late stage capitalism today.
Cameron:
Yeah. It certainly is. I think that what ... companies need to think about measuring our cultural health.
Daniel:
Yeah.
Cameron:
Right? You can do that through engagement surveys. You can do that through DNI surveys. You can do that through through just individual interviews and self-reports. So one thing that we spend a lot of time on is just measuring cultural health. So that's one way to determine ROI for coaching initiative. That's one way. Another way is to look at retention rates. Another way is to look at productivity in the terms of top line and bottom line.
Daniel:
Yeah. It's interesting because you mentioned, I want to go back to T-groups because I only have a passing knowledge of them. Is there a group aspect to Torch? Because when I was absorbing it, it seemed like it was really primarily what we're talking about is a way of pairing individuals inside the organization with individuals outside of the organization from your community and then a way to surface information about that to the heads of L and D. Is there a group component or a group element to the way you try to transform or evolve people's leadership?
Cameron:
In the past, in terms of how we launched, how we started out, we gave a lot of attention just to building the software to operationalize the individual coaching experience, that one-on-one experience. Matched with the coach, that's right for you, take a 360, set goals, make progress and measure progress. Right?
Daniel:
Yeah.
Cameron:
So those were, that was really [inaudible 00:22:26] want at Torch. What we're now, what's on the roadmap now is what I'm talking about in terms of learning pathing and the learning pathing is what allows us to configure group coaching experiences. So you're going to see more product development and resources coming out of Torch that are devoted towards group learning.
Daniel:
That's very interesting. My own personal opinion is that a group dynamics are ... you know, I teach and train on facilitation and collaboration and so understanding how we show up in groups is a very different thing than a one-on-one dialogue. I'm in a men's group and so I'm kind of curious, I want to like, can we unpack what a T-group is? Because I've heard little snippets from friends who've been involved in them. I feel like it'll be a mystery to most people listening. We are allowed to talk about this, right? Nobody's, this is not top secret stuff?
Cameron:
T-groups came out of MIT. I think they were invented in around like the early 60s. The T stands for training and it was developed for business people to learn communication skills, but then made this jump from MIT to Stanford GSB where it has evolved over the last 40 years. In fact, the the class at Stanford known as interpersonal dynamics, which is affectionately known as touchy feely, really grew legs at Stanford GSB and it's been the most impacted class at the GSB for the last several decades. That's how much people get the value that people get out of it. Right? So really, it really started from business schools but then it made its way into therapy curriculum, which is where I first experienced it because I trained, got a masters degree in counseling psychology. I actually met my cofounder in a T-group. We were in a year long T-group together in graduate school and that's how we got to know each other and trust me, you really get to know each other in T-group.
Cameron:
So it's a structured form of communication that gives the individuals a scaffolding that they would need to face really hard conversations that people tend to avoid. For example, conversations around race and gender and some ... in nonacademic settings, T-groups can touch on issues around sexuality and attraction, right? These very complex kind of taboo subjects that people tend to be afraid of, T-group provides a structure for people to broach these conversations and have a working through.
Daniel:
Yeah. Well, so that's what I was curious about because I think the phrase that I heard was, I made that to mean where we reflect on our projections on other people in the process. I'm just curious about what the rituals and patterns in like how we, what the scaffolding is that allows these difficult conversations to be contained safely.
Cameron:
I'll give you a few examples. You've heard of I-Messages, right? Or this concept of staying on your side of the net. If I want to give you negative feedback about something you said in the group, I would be very, I would be playing within the quote unquote, rules if I say, "Hey Daniel, when you made that statement about X, I felt really angry." Okay, so that's like an example of a very, of a well-packaged, I-Message. T-group holds you accountable for taking ownership of my feelings on my side of that ... I can name a behavior or a thing that you said without projecting any intent or assumptions onto you. Right?
Daniel:
Yes.
Cameron:
Then you've got a facilitator who's going to kind of play referee and to make sure that people are staying within the guardrails of the communication structure.
Daniel:
Yeah. Having this very clear set of linguistic guardrails is so fascinating and it's so helpful too to just say that I can only talk from my side. I can't, my ladder of inference can't safely go over to the other side and say what you meant and what you intended. I can only say what I experienced and what I felt.
Cameron:
And it's so important for broaching really hard taboo subjects. Let's just say that someone says something that was racially charged, right? Typically, what people do is they'll just avoid the topic or they'll explode into rage or anger, right?
Daniel:
Yes.
Cameron:
What T-group provides is a format to have that conversation. There might be feelings, it might be charged, but there's at least a structure that lets both parties feel safe so they can dive into that conversation with a hopefulness that there's going to be a positive outcome.
Daniel:
Yeah. There's something amazing in facilitation that I've been exploring around this idea of having a shared story about what's going to happen creates safety, right? Because we know at the beginning and the end point is, and the end point is the group's going to end and we're going to leave it on the field, right? So we know that whatever happens in the container is okay to some sense, to some level. I think in a way everyone should be, should have some of these experiences of having that safe space to have an emotional gym, if you will, to work out those parts of yourself. What are the leadership skills that get worked out in that? Why is that such an important component, do you think, of developing ourselves as powerful leaders in the world?
Cameron:
You know, a lot of people take the class at Stanford because they want to learn how to be more influential, right? What T-group teaches you is that a lot of what makes people more influential is the ability to be more comfortable in the full emotional spectrum. So for example, learning how to be skillful with anger, right? Learning how to be skillful with vulnerability and empathy. Learning how to stretch within those emotional domains helps you become a more influential person. Think of the opposite. Someone who cuts off their anger, doesn't know how to be vulnerable, is emotionally guarded. Those people tend to be, tend to have a harder time influencing others in a group. Interpersonal dynamics teaches you how to do that.
Daniel:
It's interesting because that was the quote on this ... this was the sticky note that I pulled out from the interpersonal dynamics scores where it's like, how do you authentically engage? Engage and communicate. It felt like, okay, I can understand how slowing down and connecting can help me be a better engager and communicator. But this idea of authentically influencing, I think influence has a negative connotation and influence and leadership do seem to be intimately related. What does it mean to authentically influence? It's a pickle.
Cameron:
So authenticity is very, turns out, is very influential, right? It doesn't mean that you need to like the person or agree with that person, but there's something about authenticity that tends to influence people towards your will or it calls people into you. Right? You'll see leaders, like the president of our country is, part of the reasons why I believe he's influential with his base is because he's very authentic with who he is.
Daniel:
That's true. He does not hold back.
Cameron:
He's very authentic with who he is. He does not hold back and he rallies his base because people agree with him and they flock to that authenticity.
Daniel:
Hmm. Yeah. That's crazy. So where do you feel like people can find a safe space to practice authenticity and leadership skills in organizations? Because you know, the T-groups, they're outside, they're inside of Stanford, inside of an organization. One of the things I've noticed is when you need these skills, the pressure's on and it feels like well, let's just give it to Tom or Sally because they're good at this thing, and I'll just take a step back.
Cameron:
T-groups are called training groups for a reason. Right? It is a training group where you go to the extreme levels of practicing these skills, right? You wouldn't host a T-group within your own company for a very, very, very ... it would be contraindicated to host a T-group within your own organization. That doesn't mean you don't practice those skills. I practice the skills that I learned in T-group every single day. Right? I just, before this podcast, I was hosting an all hands meeting and I needed to show up and tell people the truth about some subjects and I had to really be open and honest and authentic about it. Otherwise, they're not going to believe me. They're not going to want to follow me. Right?
Daniel:
Yeah.
Cameron:
I learned in T-group. How to do that in T-group.
Daniel:
The flip side to that is many people would say that leaders can't be a hundred percent honest with everyone. I don't know if that's true or not, but I, but when ... how do you authentically decide what information to share and what not to share?
Cameron:
I think that's 100% true. Leaders cannot be totally honest with everyone. You have to be skillfully honest. Right? I'm not 100% honest with my children. It would be inappropriate for me to go home and tell my five-year-old daughter how stressed out I am at work. She's not in a place where her psyche is ready to hear that. It's not good parenting. So you wouldn't say good parenting means that you should be a hundred percent honest with their children. That's not right.
Daniel:
Yes.
Cameron:
What's true for me is how to be skillfully honest, right?
Daniel:
Yeah. I think that's an amazing leadership skill to focus on, being skillfully honest and deciding what feels safe to share.
Cameron:
Right. And for me, what does that mean for me? Well, it means not lying.
Daniel:
Yes.
Cameron:
Right?
Daniel:
Yeah.
Cameron:
It means sharing an appropriate level of context, which requires a lot of reflection. It requires acknowledging the group that I'm talking to. The level of honesty with my executive team is one level of honesty. Then there's the level of honesty that's appropriate for the entire, all 70 of my employees when I'm in an all hands. Right?
Daniel:
Yeah.
Cameron:
So you have to be really thoughtful about the audience and those are the determining factors for how you show up as skillfully honest.
Daniel:
Yeah. What I really, what I'm taking away from this conversation is a beautiful idea that the leadership I think we think of often as an external thing we do, we influence others. We lead the charge. But this idea that leadership is primarily about inner work, and I wouldn't say erasing your blind spots, maybe just exploring one's blind spots and stretching your range is a really great fresh definition of what it means to develop yourself as a leader.
Daniel:
Is there anything we haven't talked about with regards to leadership development that we should talk about? Because we're getting close on time.
Cameron:
One of my investors, Gary Tan was, in his podcast, was talking about this Carl Jung quote that I really love. It says, and I might not get it exactly right, but it says, the Carl Jung quote is until you make your unconscious conscious, it will run your life and you will call it fate. Until you make your unconscious conscious, it will run your life and you will call it fate. To me, this is a perfect reflection on what it means to really look at your blind spots. If you do not look at your blind spots, if you do not do the painful hard work of bringing in, bringing attention to your blind spots, those blind spots are going to run your life and you're going to call it fate.
Daniel:
Yeah.
Cameron:
That's your Peter Principle. You will hit that ceiling and you will fail at that level. If you want to stretch as a leader, then you have got to look at those blind spots. You've got to do that hard work. And yes, sometimes it's painful, but that's really how you scale as a leader.
Daniel:
Yeah. That's a really beautiful place to close out this conversation, I think, to not stop digging. So places where, if a leader of a head of leadership development is listening to this show, they can head over to where on the internet to find out about all things Torch?
Cameron:
We can be found torch.io, or on Twitter at @torchlabs, or follow me, @yarbroughcam.
Daniel:
That's cam, C-A-M, right?
Cameron:
yes!
Daniel:
Yeah. Okay, cool. All right, so those are the places to go find out about the things. Cameron, I really appreciate your time. This is important stuff to talk about and I'm glad we had time for a deep conversation about these deep issues.
Cameron:
Thanks, Daniel. I enjoyed it.