My guests today are Rei Wang and Anita Hossain, Co-founders of coaching platform The Grand, which was seed funded by Alexis Ohanian’s firm Seven Seven Six in 2023. Rei is the Chief Product Officer and Anita is the CEO.
I met Rei ages ago, in her early days in NYC at General Assembly, where she worked as a Product Manager and Global Community Lead, developing educational opportunities for students.
And I was excited to interview her about her work as the CEO of the Dorm Room fund at First Round Capital a few years back to get her perspectives around the intersection of community and product design…especially when the community IS the product. Check out that conversation here. Rei cultivated a vibrant startup ecosystem, mentoring over 250 entrepreneurs on various aspects of business management and fundraising. Their leadership garnered recognition, including the Forbes 30 under 30 award.
Rei and Anita met during their time at First Round Capital, where Anita was the Head of Knowledge. While there, she helped hundreds of entrepreneurs connect deeply and vulnerably, to share their concerns and to learn from each other. Anita was also an executive coach with the renowned coaching firm, Reboot, and is a certified Neuro-Linguistic Programming Practitioner.
Key Advice for Working Through Challenges
Prevention is first and foremost! Speak early and often to reduce buildup, bottling up and boiling over of tensions
Make feedback about actions and behaviors, not about the person or their personality
Rei suggests that using a simple framework like SBIO is a great way to frame feedback. (Situation or data, the Behavior you see, the Impact it has on you, and the Opportunity for improvement or transformation)
Make sure feedback conversations are two-sided, with both partners regularly asking for and offering feedback
Anita underscores the importance of Co-Creation of resolutions to challenges instead of telling someone to be different. Working on these tensions with a sense of collaboration can lead to reduced defensiveness.
Links, Quotes, NOtes, and Resources
My previous conversation with Rei Wang
More About Anita and Rei
About Rei Wang
I was born in China and lived with my grandparents and my great-grandmother all under one roof. My grandparents were teachers, lifelong learners, and culture bearers of our community. We constantly had neighbors of all ages over for tea and conversation. These discussions enriched my education.
I love building communities and designing learning experiences. I was an early Product Manager and the Global Community Lead for General Assembly where I created education products for thousands of students to pursue careers they love. More recently, I was at First Round Capital where I served as CEO of Dorm Room Fund. I nurtured a community of 250+ startups, and counseled entrepreneurs on topics ranging from fundraising to management. For my leadership on Dorm Room Fund, I received the Forbes 30 under 30 award.
About Anita Hossain Choudhry
My parents immigrated to the US from Bangladesh and found creative ways to share their life lessons through storytelling. I loved the stories so much I decided to share them by performing Bengali plays all around the country. Through these stories I gained valuable perspective and connected with a place my parents once called home.
I lead with curiosity and empathy which empowers others to find their voice. I launched a women's peer group at Deutsche Bank and a storytelling series for Wharton MBAs. Most recently, as the Head of Knowledge at First Round Capital, I helped hundreds of entrepreneurs connect deeply, candidly share their concerns, and learn from each other. My work on creating safe spaces is featured in the First Round Review. I’m also an executive coach formerly with Reboot and a certified Neuro-Linguistic Programming Practitioner.
The Grand is a culmination of my previous work experiences and inspired by my belief that everyone deserves group coaching and a supportive community.
A.i. Summary and Key Moments
The co-founders, Rei Wang and Anita Hossain discussed how they started their company, The Grand, which aims to address loneliness through consistent and vulnerable conversations within peer groups. They shared their insights around building a successful co-founder relationship, investing the time and effort to create intentional interactions, including fun outside of work. They emphasized the importance of frequent communication and intentional conversations to reduce tensions and misunderstandings. They emphasize the importance of frequent and honest feedback, coaching, and removing judgment in conflict resolution.
• Rei shares how they convinced Anita to start a company with them over the course of several months, comparing the process to a courtship 12:01
• The idea for The Grand came from their own experiences with loneliness and belonging, and their success in creating peer groups for open and vulnerable conversations among coworkers and founders (12:22)
• In their co-founder relationship, they prioritize connecting as whole humans and starting conversations with honest check-ins about how they're really doing, before diving into other topics. (15:18)
• Rei and Anita have frequent conversations throughout the day, which helps them address things earlier on and be more proactive in their communication (17:34)
• The co-founder relationship provides a unique outlet for constant communication about what's going on, how they're thinking and reflecting, and clarifying together. They also recognize the importance of coaching in being leaders and building a business. (23:26)
• Rei mentions the significance of sharing feedback frequently and openly to prevent resentment from building up. They also highlight the importance of framing feedback around specific behaviors rather than personal attributes. (28:18)
• Anita emphasized the importance of empathetic listening in co-founder relationships, where you seek to understand the other person's situation and ask open and honest questions. (31:07)
• Rei advised that forming a strong co-founder relationship takes time and intentional investment, suggesting activities like retreats and pilot projects to test working together in different capacities. Anita added that having fun together as individuals is also crucial in the co-founder relationship. (38:19)
Full A.I. Generated Transcript
Daniel Stillman 00:00
I'll re welcome you all to the conversation factory. Rei for the second time, and Anita for the first time. So I'm really grateful you made time for this, and I do still hope that I can learn from you in this conversation.
Rei Wang 00:12
Thank you so much for having us, Daniel. I'm excited to be you.
Daniel Stillman 00:16
Thank you. So I am curious how you two started the conversation about starting a company together. I know the grand has around for a while, and it started like all things do, I presume, as a conversation. So I'm wondering if you can just tell me a little bit about the seed conversation.
Rei Wang 00:39
Yeah, definitely. I'm happy to start telling the story, Anita, and feel free to jump in. It was actually a series of many conversations. So Anita and I have both started at first round at similar times back in. Gosh, Anita, I think 2015 feels like a decade ago.
Daniel Stillman 01:02
I mean, that is actually almost a decade ago.
Anita 01:04
Almost is a decade, right?
Rei Wang 01:09
I can't believe it. So Anita and I had became friends through work and just developed a close relationship. And I'd always known that I wanted to start a company, and I knew that it was important for me to start a company with people that I really enjoyed working with. Right. Because that would keep me motivated and energized through the ups and downs of company building. And after a few years of working at first round, working with Anita, I was like, I think I want to start a company with. So we used to go to the Boba guys in, you know, just for coffee, tea breaks during work. So I asked Anita one day if she wanted to get Boba. And after we got some Boba, I asked her, I was like, hey, Anita, you want to start a company with me? She's like, you're crazy what we even do together. And I rattled off a bunch of ideas, and she was like, no, I'm not convinced by any of. But I didn't take no for an over. Over the next, gosh, I'd say, like six months to a year. I can't remember exactly how long it was. Anita.
Anita 02:24
Yeah, probably very long.
Rei Wang 02:29
Where, you know, I just kept on asking Anita if she wanted to go get Boba or go get lunch, and then asking her again if she wanted to start a company with me. And being fairly relentless, know, just working together and was hoping to kind of change her mind and convince her that we could do something really great together. And I remember the day that she finally said yes. We had just gone on a company off site where we went curling at the Oakland ICE, and I don't know what it was about? Curling. After we went curling, we went for a walk around Lake Merritt, which is where I used to live in Oakland, and we sat on the grass and Anita was like, okay, Rei, I'll do it. Finally said, you know, it felt like a proposal moment when someone finally says yes. And I was elated and super excited to start this journey together.
Daniel Stillman 03:34
What made you want to propose to her and to be so persistent, why did you want to start a company with Anita? I mean, obviously she's wonderful. There's lots of, I can make up my own reasons, but I'm curious, what made you say she's co founder material?
Rei Wang 03:51
Yeah, that's a really good know. I think going back to the point of, I think a lot of people start companies because they're excited about the problem space or about the market they're tackling. And while I know those things are important, for me, it was really just being excited about who I was working with. And I think over the past three years that Anita and I had worked together, at that point, we had just developed a great relationship. I really felt like I could trust her, I could confide in her. She'd helped me navigate a bunch of different kind of challenges through work and life, and I felt like we could have honest communication and a really great partnership. So to me, I think that was the signs of a great co founder relationship and why I wanted to propose to her.
Daniel Stillman 04:44
Anita, what's your version of this story? I'm really curious what your experience was like.
Anita 04:48
Yeah, that is a beautiful story. Thank you, Rei. My version is a little different, and I would highlight that. I do think there are two types of founders, ones who know they want to be a founder and they want to start a company. And I'd say, Rei was in that camp. And then there's other folks who almost need to be a founder and don't want to be. So that was the camp that I was in. I will paint the was, you know, working at first round Capital, I had become an executive coach, working with Founders Day in and day out, and I really did not want to be a founder seeing it firsthand, unless I felt like I could really dig into an area that I was super passionate about, and I can spend the next seven to ten years working on it. And if I felt like I was uniquely suited to solve that problem. And so that's why I avoided being a founder for some time, just knowing the reality of it. Until Rei and I had these walks and these conversations. And the way I remember it is we had this deep level of trust with one another. Like Rei said, we were confidants for each other, and so we knew that we would work well together in that way. But it was the problem space and our values that we aligned on. And we talked a lot about problems that we saw that we wanted to do something about. And we kept coming back to loneliness, and we bonded over our own experiences. Being first generation immigrants in the US and what that experience was like and our own firsthand experiences with belonging or not belonging. And that's really what helped me understand, okay, we have this level of trust. We also have the same values, and we've also found a space that we can spend a lot of time in and make our mark on the world. And so that's really what it was for. Yeah. And the rest is history. And, yeah, I still remember that day in Oakland. We have a picture of it. It did feel like a momentous day for us, for sure.
Daniel Stillman 07:08
That's really what. What's coming up for me is loneliness and belonging are such big challenges, and there's so many ways to approach that challenge. So I'm curious, from your perspective, Anita. And I love this idea that, God, this is a hard job. I know it firsthand because I'm sitting with people who are solving this challenge every day. And to find not just a problem space that you wanted to lean into, but a way to address it is so interesting. So, for you, how did the grand come out of
Daniel Stillman 07:52
that sort of challenge you saw of loneliness? And.
Anita 07:57
So, you know, we talked about our firsthand experience with it throughout our lives growing up. And in particular, when Rei and I both moved to San Francisco, we both started in a job in an industry that we'd never worked in before. And so if we were left to our own devices and not able to talk to anyone about it, it could be very lonely, because you question everything, like, am I good enough? Am I doing the right thing? And we opened up to each other in this way, and that was really powerful, just this realization that I'm not the only one who has these thoughts. And over time, what we did is we gathered a group of coworkers to have monthly conversations on a consistent basis where we had this real talk and really talked about the self talk or the things that we were telling ourselves and really helped each other become more confident in our roles. That was such a powerful model. We also took that to the founders we worked with. And so we'd create peer groups. And again, these founders at first would come in and thinking they have to perform and say things like, I'm crushing it, everything's going really well, when in reality we knew that that wasn't true and it also wasn't helpful. And so we designed experiences and guiding principles that really helped people share more openly and more vulnerably and talk about the things on their mind, like, am I good enough as a founder? And that is when things shifted and we realized that there is something here, but only top. When you think about executive coaching and you think about these peer groups, only top executives or founders can get access to that. What would it look like if we can create something where people across ages, geographies, roles, can get that level of peer support when they need it most, so that no one has to walk through life alone and ultimately can become what we say, the grandest version of themselves.
Daniel Stillman 10:12
The power of, you mentioned consistency in conversations and self talk, the power of looking at yourself talk and going from surface level talk to real talk. And so I really want to focus the attention away from the product and how you two live those principles, because I've seen the event that I went to, we were talking about, I guess it was several weeks ago. Now, I know, and from my conversations with both of you in the past, I know that intentional conversations matter so much to you. And I'm curious what that looks like on a week to week basis. Because we scheduled this time, we wasted some of your time on technical difficulties. But normally you would be meeting on Thursdays to have your conversation just for each other. What would you be talking about now? How would you be designing this conversation? What would you be making sure you're attending to in your co founder relationship?
Anita 11:23
Rei, do you want to go first?
Daniel Stillman 11:25
I know it was a big question. Nobody wants to jump in on that one.
Rei Wang 11:30
Go for it, Anita. I'll jump in after you.
Anita 11:33
I would say the main thing about our relationship and our conversations and what drew us to each other is we connect as whole humans and not just as colleagues or co founders. And so the container of our conversations always start with, how are you really as a person? And we have a space to do that. Sometimes we do it through rituals like red, yellow, green, check ins, which is a stoplight analogy. Green means you're here, you're totally present. Yellow means you're here, but there's something lingering on your mind. And red means you're physically here, but your head is completely elsewhere. And the goal isn't to be green all the time. The goal is to just be honest about where you're at. And check in with yourself, but also with each other. We presume that everyone's checking in green all the time, and if they're a little distracted or short or whatever, we fill in the blanks and make up our own story. And so how can we have that honest connection in the beginning of any of our conversations so that we know the starting point and then we can get into two other topics, and so that's very important for us.
Daniel Stillman 12:53
Yeah, how we begin is so important.
Rei Wang 12:56
Yeah. Plus one to everything Anita said. Well, also, I think another important thing to know is just the frequency that we communicate with each. You know, Anita and I will probably just pick up the phone and call each other three to four times a. You know, we hardly go a couple hours without talking to each other. And I think that's fairly unique for co founders, especially for remote co founders. But we're constantly checking in with each other about questions, decisions, ideas, feedback throughout the day. And I think that helps too. If you're just meeting once a week for a one on one, then you feel a need to kind of prioritize and only talk about the most important things. And you don't get to dig into all of the topics that are top of mind. But I think having this level of frequency, we're able to kind of address things earlier on, be more proactive in our communication, so that way things don't bubble up into much larger challenges or topics of discussion, but rather ones that we can discuss quickly together and come.
Daniel Stillman 14:08
To a solution or agreement on that is fairly frequent. I'm curious how you distinguish between today is a special day and a special conversation. Like there's more intention versus the. I guess I'm wondering about logistical, emergent, reactive, proactive conversations versus intentional strategic conversations and how the week might be divided up. Or is it just like it is a steady stream of conversation and each one has the same sort of human energy behind it? I feel like I'm not asking the right question here, but maybe you can guess what I'm trying to get at.
Anita 14:59
Yeah, I would say a lot of, yeah, go ahead, Rei.
Rei Wang 15:06
This is hard without.
Daniel Stillman 15:07
I know. Yeah, it's like you can't point, you can't put your finger on your nose and say, not it.
Anita 15:12
You Rei!
Daniel Stillman 15:15
Yeah, you've got the floor, Rei.
Rei Wang 15:18
Okay, sounds is, I would say it's a steady stream with kind of maybe strategic milestones or checkpoints along the way. I think because we're talking to their so frequently, we'll say, hey, I think we need to have a strategy alignment conversation. Let's schedule that for Thursday and then also on the calendar to really dig into it and have more of a prepared agenda for that conversation, especially if we're trying to reach alignment. But other times, I think the conversations are more organic. Sometimes Anita will call, we'll talk about something for five minutes. Other times a five minute conversation will turn into an hour long one, and we'll end up having more philosophical conversation rather than a tactical conversation. Right. And I think it's just having that relationship, knowing kind of what we need, what the other person needs, but also being able to be clear about what our capacity for conversation is, too. And Anita is a mom of two, and we've all got kind of busy lives going on. So knowing, like today, I just have ten minutes to talk through this, but I can chat about this Thursday after six post bedtime and dig into it further. And being able to set kind of those boundaries with each other is also important.
Daniel Stillman 16:49
What did you want to add to that, Anita?
Anita 16:52
Yeah, so just going in a slightly different direction. One thing that I've noticed about our relationship and our conversations is we almost act as each other's emotional thermostats. And that is really critical in a co founder relationship because there are so many ups and downs you deal with on a daily basis. So to be able to have this safe space with each other where one of us might be feeling stressed or down about something and the other person is able to bring the other back up, it's really nice to have that relationship. And I do think us having worked together before contributes to that and really helps that.
Daniel Stillman 17:37
Can you talk a little bit more about this idea of being an emotional thermostat? Because on one hand, telling somebody your challenges can make them feel better. But I also, I'm sure you know, the experience of being bright sighted when you share a challenge with someone, and that doesn't sound like what you're talking about, but it does sound like co regulation, like having someone else who you really can tell everything that's going on creates homeostasis in your dialogue overall in the body of your relationship.
Anita 18:10
Exactly. I think you put it beautifully, and that's exactly right. When you're building a company, there are obviously, you have your team, you have your investors, you have your customers. Just having that relationship with each other and that co regulation that you talked about is so critical to face the day to day challenges that inevitably come up.
Daniel Stillman 18:34
This is something that I think is so interesting and unique about the co founder relationship. And, you know, this obviously, Anita, as a coach, sometimes the way I talk about it is that a founder, really your wife or your husband, can't be the person who hears all your problems all the time. You can't tell everything to your board. You are trying to sort of control the messaging around what's going on to various other people who are in the organization. And there is rarely a person who you can tell everything to, the good, the bad and the ugly, except for an executive coach. And it sounds like, in a way, the two of you provide this very unique outlet for constant communication about what's going on, how you're thinking and reflecting and clarifying together, which makes me think, why doesn't everyone have a co founder?
Anita 19:32
Yeah, that's a really good point. And, Rei, part of our relationship, early days, when you were trying to find a coach, we had that relationship. I don't know if you want to speak to that at all.
Rei Wang 19:49
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think what is unique about our relationship is we're two co founders who are starting a coaching company, right? So we definitely know the importance to being collaborators, to building a business, to building a great product. And going back to the early days, I mentioned that I knew I wanted and needed to be my co founder because we had built that relationship of trust. And I had gone to her with a lot of the challenges that I was navigating in work and life at the time. And she was able to ask me really thoughtful questions to help me kind of process and find the answers within myself. So we've always had that foundation and we have different personalities in that we're able to kind of, I think, adapt to sort of what each other is feeling and provide kind of that alternate point of view and that balance to each other, too. So that way we can help see each other, see those new perspectives and kind of create that happy, perfect 72 deg temperature where we can all flourish and grow and do our best work.
Daniel Stillman 21:04
Yeah. Rei, I'm wondering, you mentioned, oh, we need to have an alignment conversation, or each one of you sounds like you can sort of call an audible, for lack of a. I mean, it's a sports metaphor. I'm not too good with those. But to sort of say what you feel needs to happen. And I'm wondering, from your perspective, I know that you are a very intentional conversation designer as well. How do you feel like you approach the structure of some of these more specific conversations that the two of you might call for? Say, let's have a conversation about blank, and let's actually have an agenda and approach it. How do you think through designing those conversations?
Rei Wang 21:51
Yeah, that's a great question. I think the first thing is to really align on the goal of the, you know, similar to how Anita kicked off our conversation today. Before we hit record, just asking, what do we want to accomplish from this conversation? What is the objective here and where are we trying to go in terms of destination? So outlining what that focus is, what the goals are, and using that to kind of set the context and frame the conversation and then also categorizing what type of conversation we're having. Is this an ideation conversation where we're trying to come up with new potential solutions, or is this a decision making conversation where we're trying to reach clarity and make a critical decision? Is this a feedback conversation where we're both trying to gain developmental feedback for each other, for our teams? Being really clear about what type of conversation you're having and what the purpose is, is the first step to making sure that you have a productive, intentional conversation.
Daniel Stillman 22:56
Yeah. Nita, I'm wondering if one of the things that I'm hearing, and I think this can always be, I think it's an interesting balancing act, is so much co creation and so know in dialogue and deliberation, but you two have different roles. Rei is the chief product officer and you are the. And like, I'm wondering how you separate whose job is what and whose decision rights are what. Or is it really just everything is dialogical and as co founders, it's something that everyone needs to sort of come into a decision together.
Anita 23:40
Yeah, that's a great question. I would say when we think about our roles, we come together first as co founders. And like Rei talked about, if there's a big decision we need to make and through our conversations we usually are able to get to alignment. And if for whatever reason we aren't, then Rei's done a good job of really creating the space for me to set the strategy and vision. But normally as co founders, we get to a point of alignment because we're not precious about, oh, it's my idea, your idea. It's really what's the greater good for the company, for the space, for our team. And when you have that baseline intention, I think you can get to where you want to go. And that's the most important thing about our relationship and how we delineate the decisions we need to make.
Daniel Stillman 24:38
Yeah. Did you want to say more about that, Rei? I think it comes up for you on that question.
Rei Wang 24:42
Sure. Yeah. I think this is a really important question and one that co founders need to figure out early on, but also check in continuously in their journey. And I think this has, has evolved for us a lot over the four years that we've been building the grant. So I'd say in the early days when we were just a team of two, every single meeting together was both of us. Right. And we would talk through every single decision together. Now we're a little bit bigger. We've got nine full time employees, six of which are on the product team, three of which are on the revenue team. So it's pretty clear these days where we focus our time. I spend most of my time working with the product team thinking about new features that we can release to make our experience for coaches, for members, for sponsors better and make sure that we're delivering a world class product experience. And Anita is really spending her time with the revenue team thinking about sales and marketing and go to market and how do we continue to bring in new business for the company. So I feel like these days we have more purview over kind of managing our teams and working with them to kind of deliver our goals and our results. And of course, we still come together a lot as co founders, but we're no longer in every single meeting together because we have to scale ourselves as our companies and our business and our team start to scale, too.
Daniel Stillman 26:19
Yeah, that's a really interesting inflection point moment that you're in where part of me feels like a little like I don't want to project, but it's like, it's a little sadness of this moment from like, wow, it's just like the two of us in everything altogether to like, I feel a little bit of a sense of loss of. Not that it's not okay to trust that person, but it's an interesting moment when you no longer have visibility to all of those things anymore.
Rei Wang 26:51
Yeah, I think there's definitely a lot of nostalgia. I mean, Anita and I like to reminisce on the early days when we would just work from her living room and it was very intimate and casual and cozy. But I think there's also great things that happen as you start to grow and scale too, which is we don't have to be responsible for making every single decision. Right. So I think that emotional burden starts to shift too, because you feel like, okay, I've got a team that I can delegate to. I've got a partner who I trust who's running another team and they're taking care of this too. So you no longer feel like that pressure solely weighs on you or on the two of you.
Daniel Stillman 27:33
I think that's a great reframe. I love that. So the two of you work with a lot of founders, and I'm curious, based on the way you think about your co founder relationship, it doesn't always go smoothly. People do have conflict, and I'm curious how you two think about working through conflict and if there's any coaching or advice you would offer to other co founders who are facing a moment of tension. And maybe I'll start with you, Anita.
Rei Wang 28:09
I'm happy to.
Daniel Stillman 28:10
Oh, Rei. Rei wants to jump in. Go for it.
Rei Wang 28:15
Okay. I'm happy to start on this one. So I think this is one of the most important topics and one of the most common topics that we see. Co founder relationships, business breakups are one of the things that we hear about most. I think, to me, the most important thing is to share that feedback frequently and often, and not to let things fester. I think oftentimes when you don't kind of discuss openly and honestly what's happening with your co founder, you start to kind of build resentment or it starts to kind of turn into a much larger conversation. So going back to kind of our communication practices, the fact that we can call each other three times a day and just very candidly say, hey, I have some thoughts about that meeting. Here's my feedback on how I thought it could be better. Or I have some thoughts on the way that you framed this conversation. Next time, could you try framing it this way? Because we have that relationship and we talk to each other so often, nothing feels like it's been kind of bottled up and boiling over, and it doesn't turn into a large point of tension or a large argument. I think the other thing to be really mindful of is just being really clear about how you give that feedback to and making about the behavior that you want to see differently, rather about kind of the person or an attribute of theirs. And that's something we spend a lot of time coaching founders and leaders on, is always framing the feedback as what is the specific action or behavior that you want to see differently, right?
Daniel Stillman 30:01
Yeah.
Rei Wang 30:02
Using the example of SBIO is a great way to kind of frame that feedback. Talking through the situation, the behavior, the impact and the opportunity, and how that person can either get a new way or approach to shifting that behavior is fundamentally sort of the crux of the conversation.
Daniel Stillman 30:26
Yeah, I'm a big fan of that framework, and it seems like there's a term I use, it's called the FQ, which is the festering quotient. And it seems like you guys really have a super intentionality around keeping the FQ really low because you have that shared vocabulary around feedback and a real bridge of communication that it's expected and that it's being offered within a good framework and within the right spirit, which is, like, super duper awesome. Thank you for that. Anita, do you have anything to add about conflict and how to keep the FQ low?
Anita 31:07
Yeah, I will add that. By the way, can you hear my baby?
Daniel Stillman 31:13
No, I can't. And you know what? Babies and dogs are always welcome on the podcast. It's totally fine.
Anita 31:19
She just started crying. Okay. She's good. The thing I would add is a lot of times feedback is a one sided conversation where you drop something that you want someone to change, and then that's it. You expect them to go off and make that change. And that's why, as we talk about Sbio is the opportunity, and that's where we invite people to take more of a coaching stance, where they get curious and have a conversation. And that part of it is, I think, the most important, because then you can get on the same page and really feel like you're co creating a solution versus someone telling you to do something different, which makes people become defensive. And so that's one thing that is really important in terms of conflict. And the other thing is with the festering quotient. I think about a lot of the founders that I've coached where we've had an open and honest conversation, and I turn to them and I say, can you say that to your co founder? And they're like, what should I do? And it's like, no, have that conversation with them. And at first, people are tense. They don't know how people are going to react. But it's so important to, again, not dwell on it and spiral on it, because then you're making up your own stories versus bringing it to the table so you both can come to the same page and just have an open dialogue.
Daniel Stillman 32:52
Yeah. This is such an important thing about the stories that we tell ourselves about what's going on and the stories, how we interpret what some of these actions is. And I think what's interesting about the SBio framework is it's really about owning your own. This is what I saw. This is what I saw. The SBI is still like, I saw this, this, and this. This is my experience. And just owning that, I think, is so powerful, versus saying, like, you did this, you did this. You did this. And it's a stance, it's a small shift, but I think it's a really important one.
Rei Wang 33:31
Yeah.
Anita 33:31
It's removing the judgment from what you're saying and making it really objective.
Daniel Stillman 33:36
Yeah. So our time has gone quickly and delightfully. There's so many questions I could ask you all, but I will just ask you, what have I not asked you that is important for us to talk about? What is something important? What's a layer deeper that we haven't touched on, or a parting thought that just seems important to reflect on around this question of powerful, effective co founder relationships based on your experience. And Anita, if you want to go first, if you've got something, Rei, we can just popcorn whenever you feel like you got something.
Anita 34:18
What I would add is the key skill of empathetic listening and how important it is in conversation, especially with your co founders. As leaders, we've been socialized to constantly problem solve and pattern match and listening to respond. And when we're in that mode, we get lost in what's really going on. And so one of the things that I hope everyone walks away with is how can we listen to really understand someone's situation? How can we get curious and just be with that person? And if everyone takes that stance and really hones in on empathetic listening and then asking open and honest questions, I really think the world would be better off. And the way that we talk about open and honest questions, it's a question that you don't have a preferred answer. You're not trying to lead someone into a particular answer, and it's not a yes or no question. And so I would say those two things, if co founders can really build those skills with one another, then your relationship will really go to the next level.
Daniel Stillman 35:33
Yeah. What is your favorite question? That is sort of an open, honest, empathetic. I mean, obviously they're the best ones come up in the moment, right? And they're new questions, but I'm willing to bet you've got one in your back pocket that is a favorite for you.
Anita 35:47
Yeah. So I love to teach people what I call outcome shift. And it's a set of two questions that really helps people move away from the problem that they're spinning on and go more into the solution. It's very simple. The first question is, what would you like? And then the second question is, what will having that do for you? And it's really powerful because, Daniel, when's the last time someone asked you, what would you like?
Daniel Stillman 36:19
Usually at a restaurant, it's not very frequent exactly.
Anita 36:24
But then what will having that do for you? Really gets to the core of what someone is seeking. And so you keep asking, what will having that do for you? You repeat back what they've said and then you keep drilling down and you can uncover so much with just those two questions. I was talking to someone who wanted to ask them, what would you like? They wanted to get their MBA and we went through that exercise and in the end we found out that no, they really just wanted to make their parents proud. And so what are other ways that they could do that? And it just opened know a deeper level conversation.
Daniel Stillman 37:04
Rei, does, does Anita ask you that question often? And if do you get tired of it?
Rei Wang 37:14
We do an exercise where we'll actually just keep on repeating that question. What will having that do for you? Over and over again until we get to the source of truth. And it is pretty powerful what it can reveal.
Daniel Stillman 37:26
You guys are such nerds. I love it.
Rei Wang 37:30
We are total nerds.
Daniel Stillman 37:31
You're literally drinking your own champagne. That's beautiful. Do you ask it? Show me. We have almost no time left, but you say, what would having that do for you? And you say something and then she says something. You're just sort of like going back and forth on this and she says.
Rei Wang 37:50
What will having that do for you? And will ask me sometimes five times in a row, right until I get to the root of what I really want.
Daniel Stillman 37:59
Yeah, I love that. That actually is in the room. That's super awesome. Rei, I would ask you the same question in the moments we have left. Like, what haven't I asked you what's important for you to say? And maybe your own favorite question would be amazing.
Rei Wang 38:19
Yeah, I'd say for anyone who's listening that is thinking about starting a company with another person, I think great relationships and great co founder relationships really take time these days. I feel like it's popular to do co founder dating or co founder Kind of speed Networking. I've seen a lot of those events pop up and while I think it's a great way to meet people, you're not going to go from a speed networking event or a dating event to kind of being co founders and great co founders overnight, right? No, I think just like all great relationships and all collaborations, it takes time. You have to form Storm Norm before you can perform. And Anita and I now have had the benefit of working together for eight years. But even in the early days of transitioning from first round to the know, we were very intentional about spending time together to form. So we went on a retreat together in the early days to talk about what the grand's vision was going to be and also to make sure that we could spend four days together in a cabin and really be able to work together well. Right? We did a couple of initial sort of pilots where we facilitated off sites together for other companies just to see what it would be like to work together in a new way or in a new environment. And I think all of those initial projects and initiatives really helped us get a feel for what it would be like to work together in this new capacity. So that's my advice for anyone who's listening, is give yourself that time, put yourself in these unique environments with your co founder to see what that relationship is going to be like and continue building it over years. Because ultimately, I really do believe that co founder relationships are what kind of make or break a company. We've seen it time and time again with the founders that we work with. So you really have to be intentional about investing that time into.
Daniel Stillman 40:27
Is. Oh, sorry, Nina, you wanted to say plus one that.
Anita 40:30
Yeah, like, plus one that. And I would just underline, make sure you can have fun. Know, that's another thing that Rei and I do intentionally, where sometimes we will get together and intentionally not talk about work and make sure that we can have fun as two individuals, two humans. After that event in New York, Daniel, you'll find that's fun. Rei and I were so hungry, we went and got hot pot. Just talked for hours and it was glorious. And so I think that's really important in the co founder relationship, too.
Daniel Stillman 41:06
That is your. Did you know this is a favorite place of one of yours from your New York days, BRei?
Rei Wang 41:14
No, we just both had forgotten to eat at the event. You know how it is, Daniel. We were starving at the end and was just trying to find any place that was open at a Tuesday.
Daniel Stillman 41:26
I'm always looking for recommendations, but if it was just serendipity, then I know the feeling of being below the line with food is halt. As they say, hungry is the first on the checklist. We are at time grand people. Thank you so much for making time to have this conversation. Where should people go to learn more about all things grand if they want to join the grand world?
Rei Wang 42:01
Yeah, definitely check out our website, www.theGrand.World. And if you want access, we've actually built a feedback tool based on SBiO that anyone can use for free to practice having feedback conversations. So you can sign up for that by going to home the grand world.
Daniel Stillman 42:18
And I will put links to that in the show notes. Thank you so much for the conversation. I'm so sorry that the Internet sometimes is not our side, but I appreciate you two being super patient with the technology. You two are awesome.
Anita 42:35
Thank you so much for hosting.
Rei Wang 42:36
Thank you so much, Daniel.
Anita 42:38
Thanks for your thoughtful questions.
Daniel Stillman 42:40
Thank you. Thank you very much.