Influence and Leadership aren’t things you turn on and off...it’s a muscle you have to practice all the time. And while being “on” all the time might sound exhausting, Stacey Hanke, my guest today, suggests that the key to leadership is being consistent. Leadership and influence is something you practice “monday to monday” and every day in between.
Stacey is the author of Influence Redefined and Yes You Can! … Everything You Need From A to Z to Influence Others to Take Action. Her company exists to equip leaders within organizations to communicate with confidence, presence and authenticity, day in and day out.
One thing I really heard from Stacey is that in order to grow it’s critical to see ourselves from the outside. That can mean recording yourself speaking or presenting or it can mean having a coach or trusted adviser who can give you honest feedback - and that you have to prepare for that feedback. If you want to dive into how to develop a culture of critique and feedback about your work, check out my interview with Aaron Irizarry and Adam Connor, authors of “Discussing Design”.
One of my favorite questions in this episode came from Jordan Hirsch, who was in the most recent cohort of my 12-week Innovation Leadership Accelerator:
How do you lead from the middle, without formal authority? Stacey had some solid, down-to-earth advice:
Don’t waste anyone’s time - be brief and clear in your communication
Have your message clear and crystallized so you can speak to it without notes
Be clear on how you want to be perceived and how you are currently perceived
Deliver value, consistently
Show up for others - listening deeply means you can respond deeply
If you want to connect with a community of innovation leaders keen on growing in their authentic presence, you should apply to the upcoming cohort at ILAprogram.com
One other fine point I want to pull out from this interview is how influence shifts depending on the size of the conversation you’re holding space in.
1-to-1 : It’s easy to adapt and influence one to one: Stacey suggests that we listen deeply and get our conversation partners to do most of the talking. Also, mirroring their body language can create connection as well.
Groups - if it’s more than five people Stacey’s rule is to get on your feet. You’ll have more energy and the group will feed off of that.
Large Groups - be “bigger” - use more of your voice, and use the whole stage. Connect to the whole room, purposefully, with your eyes
One side note: I misquote one of Newton’s Laws. The Third law is about how every action creates an equal and opposite reaction, not the second law! How embarrassing!
Check out the show notes for how to find Stacey and her work on the web as well as links we mentioned in our conversation.
Show LInks
Ed Sheeran on giving up his phone: https://www.teenvogue.com/story/ed-sheeran-doesnt-have-cell-phone
Deep Listening on Ian Altman’s Podcast: https://www.ianaltman.com/salespodcast/deep-listening-impact-beyond-words-oscar-trimboli/
Developing a culture of critique: Designing a Culture of Critique http://theconversationfactory.com/podcast/2018/9/2/culture-of-critique
Full Transcription
Daniel: Well, all right. Stacey Hanke, this is a perfect time to welcome you to the Conversation Factory. I'm really glad you made this time to talk with us, because influence is really important. And we're going to dig into it.
Stacey: Honored. Yes. Thank you, thanks for trusting me with your listeners.
Daniel: Thank you. I appreciate that. So, influence is different than people think it is. I think that's something ... like what's the misconception people have around influence that you'd like to help revise their mental model on?
Stacey: A majority of us believe that we turn it on when we need it the most. And I bet all of your listeners can relate to the concept of you have a big presentation coming up or maybe it's a big presentation to the board, you're going to a meeting. And how many times do we really prep for that? Perhaps the night before, the morning of. And then when we're there, we're really focusing on how [inaudible 00:09:20], our word choice.
Stacey: To me, that's not influence. Influence is more consistent than that. We define it as a company that body language and the messaging, they need to be consistent Monday to Monday. Which means every conversation. When that happens, people are less likely to guess who's going to show up for a podcast versus who's going to show up for a phone conversation or whatever it might be.
Daniel: Yeah. So, it's being yourself? All the time.
Stacey: But the best of you. And that's where the other element to influence comes into play, is we really believe that if we feel good, if the message is easy, the conversation is easy, however your listeners define that, we then translate that to, "I must be influential." Another common misperception I hear leaders say, "Why, I've earned this role. I've worked hard to be the partner." Or whatever the case may be. "Therefore I'm influence."
Stacey: I truly believe it's not a badge of honor. I don't think it's something suddenly you accomplish. It's more as you had said, the authentic side of every time you're in an interaction, people really see you, perceive you as someone who's influential, someone that they can trust, and someone that they really want to follow.
Daniel: Yeah. And this seems like a really important thing, because power is not ... command and control power is not really appropriate so much anymore. Especially in organizations that are trying to be more self-managed. It seems like leading through influence is so much more important than leading through, "I'm the boss."
Stacey: It is. Because the other part of the definition of who we define influence is that you've got this ability to move people or take action long after the actual interaction occurs. For example, I want to have influence on your listeners during this podcast. But to me, I don't know, that's not good enough. I'd rather have influence on them three days from now, from when they listened to the podcast, three months from now, three years from now.
Daniel: Yeah.
Stacey: To me, that's a true test of influence. When people come back to you and say, "You know, we had this conversation," or, "I used to work with you at so and so, I just want to circle back around, because you really had some impact on me 10 years ago." Or whatever it might be. But that won't happen if you're not consistent Monday to Monday with how you show up and how you stay showed up for every interaction.
Daniel: Yeah. So, what's really interesting ... So, I come from the world of design. And one of the main ways that we designers think about designing things is as experiences. And when we talk about experiences, we talk about them as journeys or arcs of experience. And it's really clear you have an influence experience arc that you're sketching out. It's not just, "Hey, I have a presentation and I show up." It's the email I sent before and it's the follow up card I send after. And then it's the looping back around. So, I feel like there's a mental model you have. There's a picture in your head of how you sort of sketch out your influence arc. And I kind of want to unpack that from your brain to my ears.
Stacey: Yeah. And you're hitting it right on the head. I really go back to my father used to always tell my sisters and I, "All you have to do in life to be successful is follow through and show up on time." He also would always follow up with, "Always be kind to anyone you ever interact with. Because you never know when you're going to need their help." I translated that into, "My name is on everything I do." Whether it's the email, the social media posts. To me, it's not always ...
Stacey: I'll give you an example. And you probably can relate to this. Client reaches out to you and they want you to speak at an event or whatever the case may be. By the time they meet me in person, that relationship better be created. I know that every touch point they have with me or with my team is constantly creating the perception, the reputation that we have through their eyes. And it is a pull through.
Stacey: I'll give you an example of ... this was a while ago. I'd been reached out by a meeting planner. We hadn't talked. It was all via email. And every time I received her email, I really started to second guess, "Is this someone I want to partner with?" It just didn't feel like the right fit. For whatever reason, the instinct said go with it. When I met her at the event site, she was adorable. Just super outgoing and kind and genuine. On the way back to the airport, I had forgotten my laptop at the event site. So, I text her to let her know. Her response to my text was everything that I experienced when she had emailed me prior to me ever meeting her.
Stacey: That's what I mean by inconsistency. When people are guessing, "Well, Stacey shows up this way if you meet her over the weekend, but when she [inaudible 00:14:34] presentation, she's this person." When we can be consistent in how we deliver a message, how people experience us, what our message says, meaning how people comprehend the words, we start eliminating doubt in our listener's mind. They start doubting us, I think they really start doubting our trust. And trust is really the backbone to whether you have influence or you don't.
Daniel: It seems like consistency has come up in a couple of your interviews as something that's really key. And this is something you're identifying with this one particular person is that she ... her written communication and her in person communication were really different. Is that right?
Stacey: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Exactly. I could go on and on. I have so many stories about clients that I admired and just was impressed by them, and then we would take a step outside of that corporate environment and they were totally different people. I'm sure your listeners can relate to this. Where maybe it's your significant other, you don't know who's going to walk through that door every night.
Daniel: Yeah, that's fair.
Stacey: We can compare that. To me, consistency applies to everything. Influence, to me, is hard work. It takes discipline and it takes a lot of hard work to have influence Monday to Monday. A big piece of that hard work that most people don't comprehend is you need to be consistent. Be consistent with how you communicate and how you treat people and every message that you give to them. Because they don't have to listen to you. They might show up for your meeting, but they don't have to mentally be there.
Daniel: No, they do not.
Stacey: You need [inaudible 00:16:08] them that it's worth their time.
Daniel: So, you mentioned your dad as an early influence in how you thought about how to show up. I actually had this ... a little card here about just curious ... you mentioned that you video tape some of your coachees to help them see what they're doing and how they show up. And so watch ... We learn by watching. I'm wondering like who else did you learn from? Who are your influence heroes? Where you look at them, you go like, "Oh yeah, I want to do that."
Stacey: Yeah. I was really fortunate in a lot of the corporate jobs that I had, I had incredible mentors. I had one really early on, right out of college. And he just ... he constantly pushed me to be uncomfortable and I never liked it at the moment, so that was a lot of it. The constant grooming from him. Then my next job I had another amazing mentor. And that's where the video taping started. Where to be their emcee, I would introduce our speakers at our events. He videotaped me. And that was a little harsh to see it for the first time. And that's when it really clicked to the fact of reality is, you feel a certain way, does not mean that's how everyone else sees you. You have to experience yourself through the eyes and ears of your listeners to truly determine the level of influence you have.
Stacey: And now I have a presentations coach, I've got a business coach. They're huge for me to continue to be uncomfortable.
Daniel: For yourself?
Stacey: The other side, oh yeah.
Daniel: I mean, I think that's really awesome.
Stacey: Because I feel like I can't ... right? And I can't preach to my clients that I mentor, "It's so important that you have a mentor, that you have a coach," if I'm not doing it. To me, that's the other part of consistency.
Daniel: What are you working on right now? What are you trying to develop for yourself? What's your edge?
Stacey: Always working on my keynote. I'm in the midst of that right now. Just creating new material, new stories, new analogies. But that's a little brutal. So, a lot of video taping around that. My business coach, I meet with him monthly. He's a big part of our team. That's all about growing a business and the mistakes we're making. The opportunities that we're missing that he sees that I don't see. And so, it's just hopping on a call and really talking about what's our strategy for the next month, for the next six months.
Daniel: So, in your own coaching, like as you're coaching other people, what are some of the things you're thinking of to help you be a better coach to others?
Stacey: Yes.
Daniel: Because I think that's really important.
Stacey: Here's what I think is not a good coach, when we're constantly telling people how great they are. I'm not saying you're not great. But you can't do anything with that feedback. How many times have you asked someone, "How did I do?" And you hear, "Good, nice job. That was great."
Daniel: Yeah.
Stacey: And you walk around life with blindfolds on, believing how great we are. I always tell my mentees, your company did not pay me to come in here and tell you how good you are. One of the first things I do with coaching is I'm always very clear on, "You tell me what reputations you want to create. Monday to Monday, how do you want people to perceive you?" Once I know what they are aiming for, then I'm very specific on every element to their body language, how they communicate, what they say, where does that enhance that perception, and where does it negate it? We're always working on that piece. I also am very clear if I say to you, "Here's what's working, here's how you can continue to grow that." Not working, meaning here's where you're creating distractions, you're making it really tough for people to understand what you're saying. Here's what you can do with it.
Stacey: I think for your listeners, any time that they want feedback, the most impactful way to get it, to receive it, is always prepare for the feedback. So, for example, let's say, Daniel, before we got on this call today I said to you, "Here's what I want feedback on during the podcast. Would you watch for that? And then afterwards, when we're done recording, give me feedback." If you are in a situation where you can interactively coach, say we were not recording this conversation. In that case, I'd say to you, "I want you to point out to me every time I do this." And fill in the blank on what you want to be developed on.
Daniel: It's interesting. It feels like a definition of leadership that I've been working on. We had an executive coach come in for the Innovation Leadership Accelerator that I'm hosting right now, this gentleman named Helge Hellberg came in. And he talked about how leadership is about the ability to be specific in the qualities that you recognize of others. And it was a very strange definition of leadership.
Stacey: Nice.
Daniel: And what I'm seeing, what you're talking about here with coaching, you don't want somebody just to say, "Hey, good job." I mean, obviously sometimes we do want somebody to hold us and tell us that we're okay. But the truth is, we want to be seen for ... Stacey, when you did that specific thing, when you moved your hands this way, that worked. Right? Your opening worked in these ways. That is a specific acknowledgement of your excellence that helps you be seen, to feel seen. Nobody ... it's not helpful to say like, "Yeah, good job. All right. On to the next thing." It's like ... that's not ... that is definitely not helpful at all.
Stacey: And I had a call right before you and I hopped on this call. A new client inquiring to mentor one of their leaders. I was asking, "Well, has this person received this feedback? Have you told this to her?" And they said, "Well, the team member told her leader, who then told her." I said, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. [inaudible 00:21:54] filtered." Already, she's getting the feedback that may not even pertain to her. And it also isn't clear. A lot of times mentees come to us, because they know we're going to tell them the truth.
Daniel: Yeah. So, one thing that came up, and I just want to make sure that I say this. Because I heard it in one of your other interviews. Is this idea of brevity and clarity. Because this came up in another interview I did recently where this idea of communicating for what happens afterwards. Right? The idea of what is my intent? What do I think you're going to do with this information? And to think that we can give somebody a paragraph and then get that paragraph communicated onwards with fidelity is absurd. And so, it seems to me, and of course this is a long ... this is not even a question. This is a diatribe.
Stacey: It's okay.
Daniel: But it seems to me that I'm imagining that some of the work you do with people is just around clarity of messaging.
Stacey: That's a big part. And it doesn't matter how long they've been in the company, the industry, how old they are, how young they are. That is probably one of the number one elements of influence that people lack, is brevity. Getting to the point. We have this internal dialogue with ourselves that the more we speak, the smarter we sound. The [inaudible 00:23:15] is completely true. I am constantly advising individuals, start thinking and speaking in bullet point sentences. Use that time to really pause to think about, "What is my listener saying verbally and non verbally to me that I can adapt my message to what they need? Not what I think they need. What they need." There's no way we can adapt our message on the fly. There's no way we can really listen to a question, an objection, a challenge without giving ourselves permission, "Stop talking." Knowing that silence sometimes is the right answer.
Daniel: Yeah. Being comfortable with silence is no trivial matter, though.
Stacey: Agree. It's the subconscious that lies to us and tells us when we're silent, everyone thinks you don't know what to say. The-
Daniel: Hold on one second. I think I just detached something important. Hold on one moment. I just destroyed the ... sorry Stacey. That was me. Sorry, that was me losing a portion of your interview. Sorry about that.
Stacey: It's okay.
Daniel: Could we just roll back the comfort with the silence piece. And the noise in our heads.
Stacey: Right. The subconscious that lies to us and says to us if we pause, if we're silent, we don't know what to say, we all know the opposite is true. That there is no way you can multi-task. Meaning, thinking of what to say, thinking about how to adapt it [inaudible 00:24:45], and then talking all at the same time?
Daniel: Yes.
Stacey: Trusting our competence, knowing that silence sometimes is the right answer. Giving our listeners time to really follow us every step of the way with our message.
Daniel: Yeah. It seems like a really, really important component of influence is confidence, internal confidence. Trusting in yourself, which is not trivial. How can one actually build that internal confidence?
Stacey: Goes back to the beginning of our conversation. This idea of Monday to Monday is if you're going to practice brevity, you can't [inaudible 00:25:20] brevity in one meeting on a Monday and then forget about it all week. It will never happen. So I want your listeners to think in terms of an athlete or a musician, an actor, an actress. However they perform, that is hours and hours of preparation before they get there.
Daniel: Yeah.
Stacey: The good news for us, because we're talking ... I mean, we're communicating some form 24/7, you have an opportunity to practice brevity all day long. [inaudible 00:25:46] is that suddenly brevity, you cannot speak without it. That way, when you go to a high stakes conversation, you're not thinking, "Well, maybe I should pause today. I really haven't done that lately." It's [inaudible 00:26:00] work. It's going to be an absolute cluster. That's what I mean, again, by Monday to Monday. It's however you're experiencing me now, Daniel, is how you would experience me if we were hanging out for lunch or hanging out in the hallway. It's the same me. Goes back to your comment earlier about being authentic To me, that's authenticity. It's not something you turn on, you turn off.
Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. So, I guess one of the questions I have. Jordan, who is in the Innovation Leadership Accelerator, I asked them at our kick off workshop last weekend if they had any questions around influence. And this one came up, which is how do you lead without authority? If you are not an authorized leader, if you are in the middle of your organization, if you don't have that mandated influence, how can somebody start to earn that ability to influence others?
Stacey: I think it comes down to every time you show up, you make people want to listen to you because you never waste their time. So, brevity's tied to that, Daniel. Right? If you're invited to a meeting, you prove that you earned the right to be there and you've earned the right to stay. To me, it's have that message so clear, not memorized, have it so clear that you know exactly what trigger points and what takeaways are right for your listener, to the point, don't waste their time, and then walk into that conversation like you own it. Your listeners do not need to know what's going on inside in your stomach or in your head. Unfortunately, we reveal that when we start um-ing and ah-ing and we start fidgeting. Or our eyes are constantly disconnected with who we're trying to create some purpose with. All of that communicates we're uncomfortable.
Daniel: Yeah, this is a really interesting idea about everything is communicating in some way, shape, or form. And so, it's about choosing what you focus on to get your ...
Stacey: And you get ... The great news about all of this, say I think a lot of what we also teach with influence is reputation management. You get to determine to some degree the reputation others have of you. You get to determine that by how you show up every day. And then what you really do leave behind. Meaning, do you make it worth their time? That message is worth their time. Do you give them some action steps to actually apply and go back to later on? All of that, to me, is within your control to some degree. Versus someone sees your name on their Outlook in the morning and they kind of think, "I don't want to talk to that person that day." Suddenly, your name has created this reputation that you're the one that's created it. Just by how you treat others.
Daniel: So, let's say I'm in that hole, right? And I might not even know that, right? It's hard. It's maybe impossible to know what somebody's thinking and feeling when they look at my name on their agenda. How can you understand that what people are feeling about you now? Because I know you talk about this. I'm probably not as influential as I think I am. I'm probably not seen the way I want to be seen. So, how do we start shifting from where we are? How do we know where we are? And how do we start to move it in that new direction?
Stacey: Two elements. Get constructive feedback from someone you know is going to tell you the truth and is not going to sugar coat it. And be very clear what works for me? What do I do and say where I have the greatest value? What am I doing that's really causing distractions and disrupting my reputation? Ask that person the type of reputation that you create. Two goes hand in hand with this, and you've heard me talk about this before, Daniel. Is audio and video, as much as possible. Because eyes and ears of your listeners.
Daniel: Boy oh boy, everybody should have a podcast, because I get to look at a chart of whether or not I was a good listener. It's pretty uncomfortable sometimes.
Stacey: Exactly. Without that, though, I really do believe we walk around life guessing the level of influence we have. And usually the guess will be based on the feeling that we have during an interaction. Now, it could go the other way, too. I've worked with many individuals who I'll record them and before we watch the play back, they'll share with me how awful it was. Yet we watch the playback and it's that moment of, "Wow, that wasn't as bad as I thought. That's not how I felt. I felt worse than what I'm actually observing."
Daniel: Definitely.
Stacey: Now, it can go both ways, right?
Daniel: Well, I mean ... And so, one of the keys of in order to get good feedback, you have to have people in your life that you trust.
Stacey: You do. And they're there. Usually you don't have to pay someone to do this. Usually it will be a friend, a significant other, your child. My nieces are great with feedback. My sisters, my sisters are part of the company. And they are always brutally honest. People are out there. You just have to ask for it. And that goes back to our comment earlier, make sure you prepare for the feedback. Be really specific on what you want feedback on.
Daniel: Yeah. I can't stress this enough. I think if you don't frame the type of feedback you want, you'll just get sort of a general ... people will default to they're like, "It was fine. You know, you're great." Or like, "Well, you know," or they'll just give you a shit sandwich. Which is also unhelpful.
Stacey: That's right. Exactly. "Good, nice job. That was great." Well, that's not going to get you anywhere in life.
Daniel: No. So getting feedback and then sort of behind that is having a trusted advisor. We talked about clarity. Right? One way to lead when you don't have authority is to be really, really much more clear and direct in your communication. And there also seems to be a flip side to that, which is knowing the motivations and the needs of the people that you're communicating with.
Stacey: Yes.
Daniel: Do you teach any tools to leaders on that part of the ... the empathy part of the influence challenge?
Stacey: A lot of it is listening and asking the right questions. Not closed-ended questions. Asking very open-ended questions. And then not being caught up in your own agenda when they're answering the question.
Daniel: Well, that just sounds easy. But we know that, that's not-
Stacey: That just sounds so easy. And maybe this is a challenge for your listeners. This week, pay attention to how many closed-ended questions you ask.
Daniel: Yes.
Stacey: I think closed is our world. When you can ask more open-ended questions, it gives you more insight on what do they really want? I always think of a good interviewer. And maybe someone comes to mind for all your listeners. The really good interviewers, as you watch them on TV or YouTube, they'll ask a question to the interviewee. The interviewee answers, the interviewer still doesn't say anything. Because the good stuff usually comes after that first response. Are you practicing, Daniel?
Daniel: Maybe.
Stacey: You know, and it's ... Something that's common is we don't even listen anymore. We teach a lot of executives and leaders how to have influence when you're in a meeting and you're not speaking.
Daniel: Interesting. Tell me more about that. That's really-
Stacey: And this kind of, yeah, this evolved over the years, Daniel. Because we'd be doing our workshops and we do tons of videotaping and people have to get in front of room, they get videotaped and coached by us. While there would be other partners or leaders in the room that would be busy on their phone, because they thought, "Oh, well, they're being recorded, I can check out." And one day we happened, by accident, to catch all the background noise on the video, of someone else's video. It just so happened. And we played it back in the room, and that's when it hit me that day where I realized, "Oh, wait. Influence is not just when you're speaking. It is so much more impact when you're just supposed to be physically listening." I always tell leaders, if you're on your phones in meetings, other peoples' meetings, then expect the exact same behavior to happen to the meetings you lead.
Daniel: Yeah, yeah. It's how you ... It's Newton's second law, right? For every action there's an equal and opposite reaction.
Stacey: So true. And how can you ... You cannot adapt a message if you're not listening. And let ...
Daniel: No.
Stacey: If you ever watch a really good leader, and I get to observe a lot of them in meetings at their corporate sites. I'll watch them. And for the majority of the meeting, they [inaudible 00:34:46] a lot. Every time they do speak, though, it's just this amazing idea or concept. I'm thinking and dissecting what they're doing, they're just listening to what's going on in that meeting.
Daniel: That's so interesting. And so, how can we ... what's something actionable for us to be more ... being influential as a listener is not a concept ... is not a mental model I really have. This is fascinating to me.
Stacey: I think we could start something as simple as when you go out to dinner with friends or family, don't open your phone. Actually listen to what's happening around you. You're waiting, so you're at a coffee shop or wherever you're at. And you're waiting for whomever to arrive. Don't check your phone. Just sit there and listen to what's going on around you. I read an interview, and I wish I knew who it was. It was some musician that had decided to give up his phone for three months. He said the hardest part initially was exactly that. Where you go to a restaurant, your friend or family member's not there. He said, "I realized I couldn't go on my phone. I realized how far connected I was from just sitting and listening to my own thoughts."
Daniel: Yeah.
Stacey: And then from there, when you go to a meeting, do you really need to take your phone in that meeting? Or could you just take your own physical being and get more out of that meeting through the listening?
Daniel: Yeah. I think that's a really, really important thing that we need today. More than ever.
Stacey: Oh, we're losing it. I think we're really losing the art of face to face communication. And a lot of it's the technical gadget, we're on this fast speed, sprint, sprint, send message after message. So much of this spoke to, Daniel, about being aware. That when you're in a meeting, it's being aware that you're suddenly drifting and thinking about what traffic's going to be like on the way home. To be able to recognize that and pull yourself back into the moment.
Daniel: Yeah, very much so. It's funny, I'm ... for some reason, what's going into my head is one of the first interviews I listened to of Ian's on his podcast was a gentleman who talked about deep listening. And one of the things he pointed out was that we can think at more than twice the speed that we can talk. So, we ourselves are thinking a lot while we're talking. And the people who are listening to us are doing the exact same thing. And so, it just seems like one important way to influence is to, I find, and maybe you know this as well, because you're a trainer. Right? Is presenting people with as much multi-sensory information as possible when you're working with them. So, it's not just talking, it's not just visuals. It's getting people out of their chairs. It's getting them to move around. It's really giving a 360 degree experience for people, so that there's not even a chance for them to bring out their phones.
Stacey: That's when your open-ended questions come into play, too. Make it part of their conversation, not you delivering this message and lecturing to them hoping that it sticks. Make them take ownership, that if they're there, they're just as much as a part of conversation as you are.
Daniel: Yeah. So, I have a ... I want to transition to maybe my last sticky note. Because there's something you talked about with consistency of showing up Monday to Monday. But we also ... You also mentioned in one of your other interviews, that there is an energetic difference between showing up in a one to one and in a group facilitation, which I know you've done a lot of as well and a keynote. And I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about ... because this spectrum of size and conversations is something I'm really obsessed with. And it's a big part of the book that I just finished writing. So, I'm wondering if you could talk about like being influential in those different sizes of conversation, from the small to the medium to the large?
Stacey: If you're one on one, I think it's really easy to adapt the message on the fly. Because just get them to do most of the talking. And suddenly it's all about just that one person. It's easier to adapt the body language if they have a lot of energy and they use gestures or they're leaning forward often, then I will do that as well.
Daniel: Sure.
Stacey: If not, I'll kind of back off. I'll respect their space. So that's where I see that piece is really different. When you get to a medium sized group, now you've got to pay attention to 10 people, 15 people, whatever the case may be. In that case, my rule of thumb, anything above five people, I get up on my feet. I know I'm going to have more energy, I know that gives them more energy than just sitting down there. And you can change this up, right? Sometimes you're standing, sometimes you're seated. [inaudible 00:39:28], though, you still get them to do a lot of the work. Get them interacting with you. Get them engaged with you by asking those open-ended questions.
Stacey: When we go to a large group, I always ... you know, anyone that I'm mentoring, they'll want me to mentor them for all these different situations. When it's a large presentation, you just have to make yourself bigger. [inaudible 00:39:48] suddenly, the person way in the back corner of the room, they can't really see you like the person in the front of the room. So, how I teach what to do with your eyes is different one on one, to a small group, to a large group. And how to really make that eye, I call it eye connection, eye connection purposeful. Although, if you're on a stage, make sure that you walk to all far ends of that stage to make sure you're connecting and really bearing where you stop. Your voice needs to change. You need to make sure that, that volume level is suitable for whatever the microphone you're wearing, for the size of the group.
Daniel: Sure.
Stacey: I want you to think of it ... I teach core skills like a golf lesson. I'll teach everyone core skills that I truly believe apply to every conversation. Where it gets difficult is based on your competitor in golf and based on the obstacles and how far away you are from the green. That, to me, is [inaudible 00:40:43] our communication is there's core skills we teach, we'll then teach you how to adapt them to not just the room size, but the personalities in front of you.
Daniel: I think that's a really important point. Which is that the skill of connecting is the skill of connecting. Body language is body language. But the intentionality with body language in a keynote versus a mid-size meeting, there is an energetic difference than with the one on one. It's like a ship. You know, a small ship is easier to turn around.
Stacey: Yeah.
Daniel: So, that's really helpful.
Stacey: I always ... Yes, it is a different level of energy. But we still want to make sure that you're authentic. I've seen individuals get on stage and suddenly it's this acting show. [inaudible 00:41:33] through that. And you're really going to lose that trust with them.
Daniel: Yeah. Because people can sense the inconsistency.
Stacey: Right.
Daniel: Right. So, you know, I guess one other question to ask is, when I teach people collaborative intelligence stuff, and I talk about the fact that I use some of the feedback frameworks that I use at work. I use them with at home, with my fiance. People roll their eyes. They're like, "Oh, she must really be tired of that." And I'm like, "Well, actually, no. She is generally really happy to have clarity about whether or not she wants empathy or sympathy or problem solving." I'm intentional about that. I'm not going to tell her the solution to her problem, because A, I probably don't know it. And B, that's probably not why she's telling me. It does seem potentially exhausting to feel like one has to be always on Monday to Monday. So, what does Stacey do for Stacey to relax? To unpack, to just be? Because it seems like that's an important part of influence is not being influential sometimes.
Stacey: Right. Right. Well, let me give you an example of this idea of what is really being on and not being on. If I were to um and ah throughout the weekend with my friends and family, and then on Monday I have a sales call and suddenly I don't do it, it's not going to work. So, that's what I mean by Monday to Monday. If I don't look people directly in the eyes on the weekends and I'm constantly talking to my phone as I'm having a conversation or I'm talking someplace else, I can't suddenly go in a meeting on Monday and now lock eyes with people. Does that make sense?
Daniel: It does, actually.
Stacey: So, these are these core skills that I compare to golf or tennis, whatever the sport may be, that we teach. Now, is it okay to maybe on the weekend you said more than you needed to say? Of course. The more that you practice, the more you're going to be aware that when you're in that meeting on Monday morning, you know when you're starting to go on this long winded road that you can stop it in the moment without skipping a beat, and get back on track. But that only happens, that moment of time of your level of awareness, will only happen when you put in the work of that practice as much as possible.
Daniel: Yeah, and building that muscle memory. That's really clear.
Stacey: You know, we talk about having a very open stance. Well, on the weekend you're at a cocktail party, can you have a cocktail and you might have a closed-stance, of course. But it's about being aware of that when you're in that conversation at work or where else you need to be influential, you're aware when your body is closed that you can easily open up without it throwing you off your message.
Daniel: Yeah. It's really clear that it's not a switch you turn on. It's a muscle that you develop.
Stacey: It's all muscle memory. It's all muscle memory. And let's face it, you learned to fill spaces with your words somewhere. You can unlearn it, too.
Daniel: That's true. Well, and I think mostly people aren't aware of their choices.
Stacey: It just takes work.
Daniel: Right? That's what's clear, except not everybody's aware of what their choices even are.
Stacey: Yeah. My nieces, I have a seven year old niece, my youngest niece is seven. She would be in first, is it first grade? I don't even know. They're already teaching her not to say um.
Daniel: That's amazing.
Stacey: [inaudible 00:45:00], because if I slip or my sister slips when we're all together, she'll catch it right away. I'm like, see, no teacher ever tells you, "When you don't know what to say, just keep talking." We've never been told. Yet somehow, we pick up that mentality.
Daniel: I had a teacher, my fourth grade teacher, hammered on us for saying like. Oh, man. We got that beaten out of us. And it's a pretty bad one. So, Stacey, we're getting close to the end of our time together. Is there anything I have not asked you about the world of Stacey and influence that I should have asked you? Is there anything that we've missed off that's important to talk about?
Stacey: I think the most important piece you hit on is what can your listeners do after this podcast? If they're really curious on the level of influence that they have through their communication, the feedback is key. And take that step of audio and recording yourself as much as you possibly can. You've got the technical gadgets to do it. I do it on my iPhone all the time. And that is going to be the trigger to constantly get you to grow. Because this is also not a one stop shop. You don't practice one skill and then you're good forever. The success, when I see successful, to me someone that really has influence consistently, is someone that is constantly working at it.
Daniel: Yes. Yeah. That's really, really good take home. And so finally, off on the internet places. Where can people go and learn more about all things Stacey?
Stacey: Got it. I'm happy to be your listeners' accountability partner from afar. We are all over social media. We never sell on it. We truly are there to just pump material to help people. Or on our website is where you can find all those sites to social media. And that is Stacey, with an E-Y, H-A-N-K-E, I-N-C, dot com.
Daniel: There you go. You heard it here first. Stacey, thank you so much for your time. I really, really appreciate you digging into all these things with us. This stuff is really important. And I hope everyone can start working on their influence muscle memory starting immediately.
Stacey: Thank you, Daniel.