Today I talk with Demetrius Romanos, SVP of Design & Development at Ergobaby. Demetrius has been my boss, my client and is also my friend!
Demetrius has worked on leading design on products of all shapes and sizes, from chocolate bars to medical devices and from laptop bags to baby carriers...and everything in between.
I’m excited to share a deep conversation about design leadership.
We discuss how to invite more of the behaviors you want in your team, how to lead with humility and how working across the whole organization to build a design system can get the whole team to think more deeply about what they deliver...and more importantly, why they deliver it. So many people come to me asking me to help their team develop a shared vision and a shared language of problem solving...Demetrius shares his insights on how to do just that, gently and relentlessly, over time.
When I teach teams about problem solving, I often break down the most famous of Design Thinking tools, the “How might we” statement, into 3 key parts.
Might indicates possibility...it’s not about how *must* we or how *will* we solve this challenge...Might, in this way, helps make problems “huggable” (as an old business partner of mine liked to say).
We indicates that we are in this challenge, together. It’s not about how Must You or how Should They solve this challenge.
Demetrius embodies these two aspects in his design leadership: Possibility and Togetherness. But it’s the first word of the phrase that (surprisingly) does the most of all:
How implies that a solution can exist if we put effort into it. The core truth of the design mindset is that a solution is possible, that design can get us out of this challenge. It’s optimism
Everything around us has been designed, usually by someone else, in the past: our offices and digital tools, our calendar and clocks. Our financial structures and org structures. Choosing to look at the current state of affairs and *not* throwing your hands up in despair, not blaming whoever came first, but rolling up your sleeves and getting started, believing that design, that intentionality can make a difference, is the essence of design and the essence of leadership. I’ve learned a lot from Demetrius over the years, but in this conversation, I am reminded of the power of warmth and optimism to lead change.
Enjoy the conversation as much as I did!
Links, Quotes, Notes and Resources
Min 1: Design to me is about facilitating change in a meaningful way. It's not just about aesthetically making something better or focusing on this one aspect of a user experience, but really taking into account a big picture and a small picture, and doing it in a way that makes sense.
Min 9, on the value of doing the work to create a design system:
the end benefit was that we got so deep into who we are and recognizing the values that our brand makes for our products and for our end users. It just changes now how people talk about what we do internally.
Min 13, on how to build alignment through design:
Small wins, I think is the best way to put it. My career, especially the last, probably 15 years has been very much about driving organizational change with through design, but I don't do it in a silo. It's all about collaboration, but you have to bring people along on the ride...People can say, "Hey, I see the value in this." It's simple as that. It's not about me, it's about the process. If they believe in what the output was and what they got out of it, if they felt better afterwards than they did going in, then I've done a big part of my job. By the time I got them to this design language workshop, there was still uncertainty, but they were comfortable with me being their guide along the ride.
Min 35 on Design Leadership:
You lead with what's the big vision. What are we trying to achieve? You lead by giving them a safe place to explore, you lead by assigning sub leaders, making people feel empowered to do what they do, and to come back and surprise you with something you might not have asked for. I think it's a bigger role, frankly. Bigger in the sense that you're not just the facilitator that's going to ask the questions and create the worksheets and all that stuff for like a finite period of time. You're really teaching skills and you're encouraging things that are different. It's forcing the folks that you assign as sub-leaders to really be that. I think it's helping people grow faster.
Min 44 on Humility and Respect in Leadership:
I was always taught to respect ... you've heard this kind of stuff before, respect the janitor just like you respect the CEO. We're just all people. At the end of the day, we're just all little creatures on this earth trying to do our thing to move the ball down the field a little bit. So, if we just all have a little bit of humility, work well together, no one has to be best friends at work, but we sure work better when we like each other, and then we see a bigger reason for doing what we do. Getting people to sort of rally around that. Be honest and open. Say, "Hey, this is not my thing, but that's your thing. Or maybe if this isn't for you, try something else." I don't know. It's just a comfort in my own skin and trying to live through that. I think people respond to that, especially your younger designers when they see the boss say, "I don't know that, but I know this guy that knows that so we're just going to go ask him," and it's okay.
More About Demetrius
Demetrius Romanos is a business-minded, brand experience evangelist. A consummate design diplomat, he’s been preaching the gospel that “everything matters,” from his time working in renowned consultancies to his present role SVP of Design & Development at Ergobaby.
For over 20 years, Romanos has applied his creative leadership, strategic thinking and deep empathy to help companies use design strategically to change corporate culture and drive top and bottom line growth.
A graduate of the University of Cincinnati’s industrial design program, Romanos has been published in numerous magazines and newspapers, as well as being included in the Cooper Hewitt Design Museum’s first Design Triennial.
Full Transcript
Daniel Stillman:
Amazing. Wow. Okay. Demetrius Romanos, welcome to The Conversation Factory.
Demetrius Romanos:
Thank you so much. It's awesome to finally be here, honestly.
Daniel Stillman:
We've known each other-
Demetrius Romanos:
I watch these, I listen, and it's really cool to finally be on.
Daniel Stillman:
Well, that's really nice of you to say, man. We've known each other a long time.
Demetrius Romanos:
Yeah, it's been a bit.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. I really would love to start with what design means to you.
Demetrius Romanos:
Oh man. You want to like dive in with the most loaded question first.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah, I do. I do.
Demetrius Romanos:
No, I like that. Design to me is about facilitating change in a meaningful way. It's not just about aesthetically making something better or focusing on this one aspect of a user experience, but really taking into account a big picture and a small picture, and doing it in a way that makes sense.
Daniel Stillman:
You've worked on, when you talk about the big picture and the details, you've worked on the design of such a broad variety of things, and also the things around things.
Demetrius Romanos:
Yes.
Daniel Stillman:
The ways we work and things like that.
Demetrius Romanos:
Yes. To me, it's about full ecosystems. It's not just the object. It's the object in context, the object within a system of things, how people interface with all of those and what it means from a brand perspective and what are you trying to drive ultimately.
Daniel Stillman:
Who does design belong to?
Demetrius Romanos:
Ooh. Who does design belong to? Design belongs to the masses. Maybe that's a bit too much of like a proletariat view with flags and Trotsky and all that good stuff.
Daniel Stillman:
No, it's great.
Demetrius Romanos:
No, I think ultimately, it's for the masses. We do for them. We do for others. It's more philanthropy than it is anything.
Daniel Stillman:
Wait, let's unpack that. What does that mean to you? Philanthropy, it's a gift?
Demetrius Romanos:
It is. It's a gift. If you do your job right, it's not about a shiny, beautiful object. It's about appropriateness, it's about guidance, it's about giving people the things that they need and doing it in a way that is beneficial to the environment while still helping your companies flourish enough that they can provide the next thing.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. Is it different when you're doing chocolate versus baby care? Is it different? What's the same, what's different.
Demetrius Romanos:
Yes, there's still an emotional hook.
Daniel Stillman:
Just picking two random things that you've worked on.
Demetrius Romanos:
No, it's true. It's a totally similar emotional hook. With chocolate, it's a craving, it's a flavor. There's a different kind of emotion that you're trying to tie into. With the baby product, you're talking about the most precious thing in a person's life, which is the growth of this new little human. The output and the level of complexity might certainly be different, but in terms of what you're trying to touch in someone's heart, I think is very similar.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. When's your talk? Is it next week?
Demetrius Romanos:
No, it's the 17th, I think.
Daniel Stillman:
Okay, so you've got some time.
Demetrius Romanos:
I should probably know that, yes.
Daniel Stillman:
You don't have to know the date. You just know your time.
Demetrius Romanos:
[crosstalk 00:03:23].
Daniel Stillman:
I just want to jam with you a little bit, because I know that you're still sketching it out. This is about design systems, but really, it's about leading and building how the design organization interacts with the rest of the organization.
Demetrius Romanos:
Yes, absolutely. I've got the good fortune of many gray hairs and years under my belt to figure this out, screwed up along the way, and finally gotten to something where I believe that, a design language system, however you want to look at it, is much, much bigger than just making a series of things all look similar. It has such a greater impact on an organization and how it's created and what the output is long-term, that I just can't wait to really talk about that.
Daniel Stillman:
It's interesting because like, when I was in design school, I remember this idea that was first introduced to me that the logo and the letter head, that everything involved in the company should feel like it comes from that company, like it all has the same flavor. Why is that important, do you think, for a company to have that kind of consistency maybe?
Demetrius Romanos:
Yep. Well, there's a handful of reasons. First is recognizability, so that when some random person interfaces with your product or service, they have seen it before and it stands out. There's differentiation, which is different, so that's differentiation both within your category against competitors, but also within your own product portfolio if you want different things to have different reasons for being. Those are sort of the key drivers, but the overall creates a consistent brand impression. It ups your brand value. When you've got things that look like they go together, it appears and is purposeful, which means that there's a deeper thought that goes into what you do.
Daniel Stillman:
What is that?
Demetrius Romanos:
It's like when you match your belt and your shoes. It shows that you cared
Daniel Stillman:
I love how you bring it back to fashion. What you don't know about Demetrius is that he is always dressed impeccably.
Demetrius Romanos:
Well, that means a lot coming from you, Daniel. I'll never forget the purple pants.
Daniel Stillman:
I knew we would get to the purple pants.
Demetrius Romanos:
I hope you still have them.
Daniel Stillman:
They faded with the years, man. Do you know like when you have a favorite pair of pants that you stop wearing as much? Because you can see that they won't last forever if you love it as hard as you would love them. This is a whole separate question about where are the cool pants for guys, but that's not what this podcast is about.
Demetrius Romanos:
No, that'll be a different one.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. It's a different one. In our pre-conversation, you talked about how you had to bring all of these different stakeholders together to really collaborate on not just what the look and the feel of your product line was, but what ... you used the word soul.
Demetrius Romanos:
I did.
Daniel Stillman:
Let's unpack that. A, the process of building that collaboration, and B like, what does it mean for this thing, this system to have an easiness, a soul?
Demetrius Romanos:
Yup. Great, great, great questions. I will say that Daniel did not ask me to plug him, but I've been with this company a little over 18 months, and there was a period about what? Late last year? Where Daniel came in and helped me introduce innovation practices. Now, this was not just done for my design team, but we brought in sales and we brought in marketing. It was really about establishing a new way of thinking and a new way of working together and seeing a bigger picture of what we're trying to do. That I thought set a fantastic foundation for what I sought to do the next with design language systems. Again, like I said before, a design language system is not only an externally about recognizability, but creating a look and feel that vibes for your brand. But the soul that comes from who your brand is and why it exists and who you're working to serve.
Demetrius Romanos:
What we did, I brought in a guy that I worked with before, Brandon from Play And Co, a fantastic partner in this. We looked at getting to the root of the brand, which starts with the brand pyramid. Again, typically these things are just to call out your points of difference and sort of the essence of what the vibe is. But people think about those things very verbally. It just sounds pretty. When it sounds pretty, it sounds like it reflects us. That's great, but sound and physical are two totally different things, which brings in then this question of like metaphors. How do you get these verbal and visual metaphors to come together and align on those? Let me tell you, when we started this activity, I think the designers kind of got it, the marketing folks did not get it at all.
Demetrius Romanos:
Like, why am I in this three-day workshop? I have no idea what you guys are talking about. But when you really unpack what our brand is versus our sister brand, find these commonalities and differences verbally and then start associating attributes, like what does that feel like? What does that sound like? What do you think of when you hear the word "quality"? What do you think of when you hear the word function? And start taking these verbal cues into visuals and creating then this foundation that everyone goes, "Oh my God, I never really thought about it that way." It just changes what you're trying to do. We went in with the intent of, we want our products to have a consistent look and feel across our portfolio, but also, when someone's walking down the street, they know that's ours and not our competitor X, Y, Z.
Demetrius Romanos:
As simple as that, but the out or the end benefit was that we got so deep into who we are and recognizing the values that our brand makes for our products and for our end users. It just changes now how people talk about what we do internally.
Daniel Stillman:
For people who aren't familiar, how do you build a brand pyramid? What are the components of the pyramid that you're trying to get people to go through? It sounds like there's a framework you're working through.
Demetrius Romanos:
Yeah, there is a framework, and we typically, the brand pyramid starts at the bottom with your points of parity and your points of difference, and who is your target? Why do you exist and who are you there to serve? Then it ladders up to more kind of fluffy feelings of what are the feelings you're trying to communicate? What are the things that they interface with and actually feel? What are the things that you're trying to say from a verbal standpoint? Then, depending on if it's product related or brand related, it might have different kind of outputs. Then there's always this essence that guides the whole thing. This lofty sort of, almost like a mini mission statement for the brand, that's what everything is grounded at. But again, it's all quite verbal. You can envision lots of nice photography and copy and things like that, but nothing that then takes that and translates it to the physical world, which is what industrial designers are often tasked with.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. Just to be clear, we're talking about baby care products, which are about as physical as ... They interface directly with your skin, with your baby's skin. There's a tactility. It's a very primal kind of a product.
Demetrius Romanos:
Yeah, absolutely. It is. There're certainly practical aspects to it. But again, like I said before, you're dealing with the most precious thing in most people's lives, especially for our target, which is first time moms. Making sure that she feels safe, that she feels comfortable, that she understands how to use this thing, and that it does everything it says it's supposed to do, both for the physical of the baby, but the physiological. There's so many benefits to baby wearing and baby carrying that are not really thought of typically from an end consumer perspective. How do you drive that into what it is that we make?
Daniel Stillman:
Let's look at that three-day experience. You said, at the outset, some people were confused about why they were there or what was expected of them. In terms of like designing the whole arc of the conversation, resume out from where you started to where you want to get to, how did you get them to commit that kind of time to that dialogue?
Demetrius Romanos:
Yeah. When we go to our company mission statement of making sure that we can help families bond, grow and thrive, there's so much to that if you unpack it. It was a fantastic place for us to start. What does that mean? What does bond, grow and thrive mean? What is the bigger picture of that? You get into these environmental discussions and political discussions about what's going on currently, what's happened before, where are we going next, post-COVID world. It's so much there, but if we just truly focus on who we're trying to serve and why, there was a lot of content, a lot that we can really dig into. Like, why do we exist? Our founder isn't part of the company anymore. There are people that have worked here for a long time that still have that route, but really just zoom way the hell out and say, why do we do what we do? Then focus back in.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. As a design leader, how do you facilitate that dialogue to get those people who are maybe on the edge of that conversation to fully engage with where you want to take them to?
Demetrius Romanos:
Small wins, I think is the best way to put it. My career, especially the last, probably 15 years has been very much about driving organizational change with through design, but I don't do it in a silo. It's all about collaboration, but you have to bring people along on the ride. Again, even back to your workshop, that was a simple commitment for my team and for a couple of other teams to come together, it's a day and a half, but you're going to see the benefit out of that. I was setting up the foundation even before that. Little wins. People can say, "Hey, I see the value in this." It's simple as that. It's not about me, it's about the process. If they believe in what the output was and what they got out of it, if they felt better afterwards than they did going in, then I've done a big part of my job. By the time I got them to this design language workshop, there was still uncertainty, but they were comfortable with me being their guide along the ride.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. You had really built a lot of trust, and I'm thinking back now to some of our ... This is back when there was traffic in LA, everybody. Demetrius and I had some long ...
Demetrius Romanos:
I don't miss that.
Daniel Stillman:
We had some long conversations going into the city about building this collaborative language because I know when you came into the company, there can be this big mission of where we want to get to. Everyone just, I call it like a bucket of puppies, just everybody just frolicking and gambling. There's a long road to get there. Being a new design leader, trying to build that coherent soul of a company and to have design be really the glue for all of it, where did you start? When you think back to the beginning, what was the sort of like, okay cracking my knuckles, wiggling my fingers, sitting down to the keyboard, where do you think somebody should start if one should find themselves in that similar situation?
Demetrius Romanos:
I always say the best place to start is ask a lot of questions and never be afraid to raise your hand. For me, it was really tough. I say it still, this was the hardest industry I've had to work in because I came in pretty blind and naive. I worked on soft goods before and office products, and carrying a laptop is not the same as carrying a baby, even though the products might have a similarity in terms of construction, they couldn't be more different. For me, it was really about making sure that I am open and honest with what I know and what I don't know. I feel like I've got the benefit of not having kids so that way I can look through a true, open empathetic eye as opposed to designing for myself, and relying on those around me that know more than I do and complimenting their skillset.
Demetrius Romanos:
And also showing them a way. Saying that it's okay to play, it's okay to experiment and try things. Use me as the naive guy. I might suggest some things that are crazy. Maybe they'll work, maybe they won't, but that's okay. I think asking the right questions and creating a safe space for people to play and try things.
Daniel Stillman:
It seems like there's a tension, I would imagine a tension between, and I've heard this from other leaders, of the humility to ask a lot of questions, to the sense that you should know what you're doing and you should know everything. How do you tap into that playfulness?
Demetrius Romanos:
It's a great question. I know what I know, and I know what I don't know. It just has always driven me, because I don't have to be the smartest guy in the room. I have to know the smartest people to compliment me and go seek the answers that I need, but it's impossible to be a wide T and a deep T. I think was Idea that invented the T system anyway. I'm pretty wide and shallow in a lot of things and deep in design leadership from an organizational level. But I don't have to know everything. I think it actually makes you a better leader when your team feels like, oh, I actually know more about my boss in this specific thing and he's okay with that.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. For people who aren't familiar with the T model, do you think about the T when you're hiring or building teams? Is that-
Demetrius Romanos:
I do. Yeah. The T model is just about like ... Are you wide in your breadth and shallow or deep in your knowledge of a specific space? If you are a highly competent individual contributor, that's like a principal designer, your team might be quite narrow and quite long. If you are a Jack of all trades, you might have a very wide T that's a little short, but maybe deep in a very specific area. If you're a general contractor versus a master plumber, for example.
Daniel Stillman:
Right, and the idea is we need people with deep experience in something so that they can contribute something that the rest of the team doesn't necessarily have.
Demetrius Romanos:
I worked in the agency world for a long time, which is where you and I met originally. You do form a wide T in that, because you get to work with so many different kinds of clients and industries, you learn a little bit about a lot. Having then parlayed that into a corporate role, my last job, and then continuing in this one, I finally I've started to deepen the T and the category, but it doesn't change necessarily what I choose to know and choose not to know about what I'm contributing to that business and to that category.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. Do you feel like design leadership has changed in this fully remote and also deeply stressed time?
Demetrius Romanos:
To a certain extent. I find myself not being able to just be the head over the shoulder and swing by a designer's desk and say, "Hey, what are you working on? Let's check out some things that you're doing," and just provide some of this impromptu guidance. I find that I'm becoming a weekly cheerleader. Just to keep everyone engaged and to know that they're cared for, and that they're not just working on their little silo, that we still are a team. I think reinforcing sense of team becomes really challenging.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. How are you doing that cheerleading and that teaming in this way?
Demetrius Romanos:
I send out a lot of emails. I do like a Monday and a Friday email just to check in with everyone to talk about weekends, to talk about what you're doing. So, kind of more light-hearted, not as business related. We do Zoom cocktail hours. We do our design reviews, where each person can come in and share what they're working on, so it's a little bit more like loose a way of sharing and getting feedback. We use rose thorn buds. Bringing in these little techniques and just sending random things is all we can do.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah, so you're pumping the system with energy and with specific conversations at a specific cadence.
Demetrius Romanos:
Yes. I'm finding that, it's not just me. A few of my teammates will be doing the same thing, and it's cool when that becomes just part of the culture.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. What have you been doing to take care of yourself? I think facilitating and leading, it's an energy in sort of ...
Demetrius Romanos:
Yeah. Taking care of myself has been harder. We tend to travel, my wife and I tend to travel a lot. We're not able to do that.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. Oh my God. You're right. That is totally your happy place.
Demetrius Romanos:
It's totally my happy place.
Daniel Stillman:
Oh man.
Demetrius Romanos:
Not being able to get on a plane, it sucks, but we take day trips most, every weekend. That's expanded to further a radii in terms of mileage, but we get out.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah, you went all the way to Napa a couple of weeks ago.
Demetrius Romanos:
Yeah, we've done Palm Springs, you name it, throw in a good audio book and just go see something. Aside from that, I do a lot of Zoom conversations with friends. I'm just trying to stay connected with people. I've found that I've been connecting more with old contacts and old friends now than I had before. I don't like phone calls. I'll be the first to admit it. Forcing that dialogue is not easy, but now that I'm doing it, it's just been another way to connect. I think at this point I've sort of settled into the new routine. I'm not forcing myself to question every day, when is this going to be over? It just is. We're just okay with that. But it's hard to really feel creatively energized, I'm finding.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. I really appreciate the way that you are curating, nourishing conversations for yourself. This is a huge thing that people really do need to do for themselves. I feel like, often when I work with people, they cultivate their network as the last resort. They're changing jobs, and so they start to reach out to people that they haven't talked to for umpteen years, but there's so much value to cultivating your community in a continuous way, which is what you're doing.
Demetrius Romanos:
Absolutely. Yeah, trying my hardest. I did a presentation recently about macro trends, and one of the key things is really taking time to feel in this moment. It's too easy to get caught up in the race and not really feel what's going on around you. It is a good time to stop, take stock of the things that matter without trying to over chase happiness, and be okay with that. It's empowering, I think.
Daniel Stillman:
It is. Well, because it's taking some ownership over ... Instead of saying that something has to be different than it is, it's empowering by taking control of saying, this is where we are, this is where things are happening right now. I love this idea that you are not questioning, when will it change versus this is the way it is.
Demetrius Romanos:
It will end. It's bound to end. It's going to be different, then some things will carry on as they were, other things will return to what a normal was. Human nature is to like consistency, and it's to like whatever normal is. We will find a way to get back to that. Every big thing that's ever happened, we go back generally to what we did before with some slight changes. I'm optimistic that that will be the case. It's just unprecedented in how long it's lasting.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah, it is extraordinary. One of the things that like, I feel like when we were talking way in the beginning of this, one of my concerns, and one of your concerns was, as a physical product company, physicality is such a big part of what you do, the fittings and also like talking to customers around interacting with the product, doing home visits and doing research. How have you adapted some of your workflows to some of that?
Demetrius Romanos:
Well, it's summertime, but just generally, I think we are fortunate in Southern California to have four months ... sorry, four seasons of great quality weather. We can do things outside, which is where I was going with that. So, just last week, in fact, we had to do fittings of one of our new products, and we set up an easy popup tent on someone's driveway, and we had 10 different moms come with their kids, and we kept our distance, we wore masks. We did the fittings in the best way possible, which was a little bit different, but we made do, and it worked. I think a couple months ago, it would have been a bit more challenging, but I think as people have gotten more comfortable with how to handle hygiene and how to live within this situation, I think we're just a bit more comfortable doing it.
Demetrius Romanos:
Now, it certainly raises issues when, in terms of not being able to travel to the factories, for example, and work on things there, but fittings internally, it's actually ... that was one of the last hurdles that was difficult. Now, we seem to have figured out a solve for that.
Daniel Stillman:
Oh my God. I'm so glad. It's so important. That's feedback you really need.
Demetrius Romanos:
Yes. I think for me, the bigger thing is not being able to do innovation workshops in-person, because I've run now a handful of them remotely, and you can do, I think, high level, and again, more strategic, more verbal things in quite successful way. We've done a couple, even two-day and three-day ones. When it gets into rough prototyping, like let's do a co-creation session where we're like duct taping things together, it just doesn't work. It's like I'm almost thinking, could I set up somehow an outdoor innovation space? So, you actually could bring people together. I haven't given up on that.
Daniel Stillman:
You shouldn't give up on it. I'm also really curious, what advice would you give to other people who are trying to do innovation workshops remotely? What have you learned? Because I know this is not how you work. You would bring ... you'd throw the team together for three days in a room, and we can't do that anymore. What's changed? What do you feel like is best practice?
Demetrius Romanos:
What's changed is that you're forced to try to figure out different things that might replace or replicate what you've used before. I think it requires a little bit of patience with ourselves to say, you know what? It's okay to try different tools. I've used MURAL, and no knock on MURAL. It's fine if you are comfortable with it and for certain applications. I personally, just don't love it. I've done a lot more PowerPoint templates and assigning a head of each breakout team and say, "You will be filling out this template," and try to make it, not necessarily prescriptive, but as self-guided so that when I get the output back, that there's some value to it.
Demetrius Romanos:
The benefit that I've seen is I don't have to fly people in from different parts of the world. I can have now workshops that aren't just my North America team, but we can include people from Asia, we can include people from Europe, and so it becomes more diverse, more participatory, more representative. We wouldn't have thought to do it that way if we didn't have to.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah, and when you talk about the collaborative language and building into a framework, it seems like that's the thing that really is effective. We have a framework, and there's a linguistic process and you're guiding us to think together through that process.
Demetrius Romanos:
Yes. I will say that one of the things I've seen is that teams naturally just work within their own silos. When you are working remotely, I believe that everyone has had to step back and say that we're in this for something bigger. It's no longer, what is the marketing team doing? What is the design team doing? It's what is Ergobaby doing to move X, Y, Z. I feel like this greater sense of team just really blossomed.
Daniel Stillman:
Also, I want to highlight, when you were talking about bringing everyone together for this brand voice and soul workshop, you were appealing to the core values of the brand as your starting point.
Demetrius Romanos:
Yes, at our mission, our values, all about loving the brand, loving who you're working for, who are you making things for, and what are you trying to get made for them? What are you facilitating through your products? What are you enabling through your products? Digging into that. We had the luxury, frankly, of doing that workshop in person. This was before the crap hit the fan. Would it have been as successful? I don't know. There's some value to ripping and tearing magazines and putting together these boards that give you a vibe that feels more organic than if I would curate, here's 15 images that you guys can pull five from to create your little PowerPoint slide. It could be done. It just would lack, I think, a little bit more of the organic nature that's required to create a soul.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. I think tearing magazines to pieces is definitely a fun experience, but I will say I'm going to be bringing somebody back from the facilitation master class, who we do these little spotlight facilitation sessions, each person in the masterclass gets to run like a little facilitation experiment. I say a little like it's not important, but it's a short facilitation experiment, and this one particular woman did an image based facilitation where she had people go, and on MURAL, you could ... there's actually an image search tool in it. You can also copy and paste an image from the internet, where she asked people to go find an image that represented, I think it was like commitment that they were talking about, what commitment looked and felt like to them. I don't know, man. Maybe my pushback is like, I get The New Yorker, which doesn't have a lot of pictures in it.
Daniel Stillman:
I know this happens when I'm like, I need to get some magazines with pictures, and I always have this ... I don't have like a buildup of cosmopolitans. I get Martha Stewart Magazine, for some reason, Janet's mother somehow. I don't know why we keep getting it. Nobody's paying for it as far as I know.
Demetrius Romanos:
Who knows.
Daniel Stillman:
But I love looking through Martha's calendar every month. It always tickles me. But yeah, getting ... I'm just saying there's an infinite number of pictures online, but I agree with you 100%, I've done those workshops where there's something ... you're tapping almost into people's subconscious when they're sort of like they rip one and then in like an eyeball from one thing goes on top of the mouth of another, and they're really doing something like something clicks. That's a very special moment.
Demetrius Romanos:
It is. I mean, you're riffing off of each other in a physical way that's almost subconscious, and it's really hard to replicate that through a Zoom meeting.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. Challenge accepted though. I think the way that we're tapping into people's subconscious and collaboration, I'd be curious to see what can be done because I think it's an important part of the process where people kind of get into that. I think before Clay and Legos, I don't know what people were doing to replace that, because there's people who that's ...
Demetrius Romanos:
No idea. That's their whole thing.
Daniel Stillman:
That's their whole thing.
Demetrius Romanos:
We've had people bring in images in advance, like here's kind of a prompt, here's a little bit of a homework assignment, there's some somewhere it's on the fly. In other instances, it's been okay, we're going to capture kind of the verbal vibe, and then the design team is then going to go back and fill this out with imagery and then represent that for feedback and just to triangulate. And it's still working, it's just different. I think it's going to make us all better though once we do have the opportunity to go back to physical environments, because we'll have just new ways of doing things.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. In a way, the default was we'll come together and do three days. Now the default is everybody can come if we can make it in a time zone that people can come. Now, we just have one more modality to work with. What I love, what you were talking about is like intentionally, in a way, breaking up the arc of the conversation. I was saying like, okay, well, here's the verbal part that we know everyone can participate in, and now let's take the visual part and do that offline, slow down, let the design people marinate on that, then bring it back, and then have another cycle of feedback and iteration. It's like, it doesn't all have to be done in one go.
Demetrius Romanos:
Correct. I think there's a side benefit that we wouldn't have considered, is that doing a two or three day workshop with everybody involved is a big time commitment.
Daniel Stillman:
Huge.
Demetrius Romanos:
But if you say, hey, marketing team, we need you for three hours to do this, and then we're going to go away for a week and then get you in for another hour, it's amazing. You get really committed contribution and valuable feedback.
Daniel Stillman:
Maybe this is, as our time winds down, it's really thinking in terms of inputs and outputs.
Demetrius Romanos:
Yes, and knowing that you can break things up as you need to. You've even done your own masterclasses. One was around specifically just warmups. You're going to join this, you're going to learn about warmups and practice some. I loved it. I found it valuable, and it didn't have to be more than that, which was great. How can you get the most out of someone's time knowing full well what you're trying to achieve as an output?
Daniel Stillman:
It's interesting, because I feel like that's one half of the spectrum is like inputs and outputs specific contribution, and then the other is, everyone altogether and stretching. The marketing people are stretching themselves to participate more into the design, and the design is really stretching itself to really understand the brand voice. There's some value to both of those poles, if you will, of how you're going to design the conversation. It sounds like you definitely ... where we've always been, like the strength is of design is let's get all together, and you, as the lead of design, will lead this conversation where everyone is coming together. What does design leadership look like now that we are starting to break up these conversations into smaller chunks?
Demetrius Romanos:
Good question. You lead with what's the big vision. What are we trying to achieve? You lead by giving them a safe place to explore, you lead by assigning sub leaders, making people feel empowered to do what they do, and to come back and surprise you with something you might not have asked for. I think it's a bigger role, frankly.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. Say more about that. Bigger in what way?
Demetrius Romanos:
Bigger in the sense that you're not just the facilitator that's going to ask the questions and create the worksheets and all that stuff for like a finite period of time. You're really teaching skills and you're encouraging things that are different. It's forcing the folks that you assign as sub-leaders to really be that. I think it's helping people grow faster.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah, because you can't possibly do it.
Demetrius Romanos:
Right.
Daniel Stillman:
You use one of my favorite words, which is surprise. I used the word surprise in one of the opening sentences of my book, this idea that a transformative conversation will surprise us, that we have to walk into, even the most difficult conversations, with the willingness to be surprised. Otherwise, there's no ... what change can possibly happen? Can you talk to me a little bit about what surprise means to you in your work? Because it's such an interesting idea.
Demetrius Romanos:
We talk a lot about surprise and delight for our end users, and it's been just ingrained in me forever. I don't even know where it came up. It must've been a P&G thing, but we don't really think about surprise for ourselves. We're always thinking about who it's for, this aha moment. But I do find that there's been surprise. I do find that we've gone into an unknown world where we're seemingly just discombobulated overnight and having to find new ways to do things. When there's an output that you go, holy shit, I didn't know it could be that awesome. Pardon me if you have to beat that out. But wow, I've seen a lot of fantastic output in my workshops that honestly, I don't think I would have gotten the same if it was done physically.
Demetrius Romanos:
So, there is a level of surprise, almost no question like, well, geez, we do go back. What are this? Should I really keep? Just because it's better versus how I did things before. Who's stepped up, who's really shown a level of engagement? Because they're feeling more alone, otherwise they might have agoraphobia. In a big setting of a hundred people in a workshop, they might just freak out. There's these fantastic little side benefits that I think are cool surprises.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. I love that, and I think the willingness to be surprised and enjoying people, bringing something to you, that is different than what you would have scoped or expected, is a really powerful mindset to have as a leader, and non-trivial at all.
Demetrius Romanos:
No, I mean, I'm a kid at heart, and when I manage my teams, I always use analogies like, listen, I want you ... When you teach children how to bowl and they put those inflatable things in the gutter so that way the ball won't go in there, I'm that. I want you guys to just whale on the ball and just try stuff, and I'll be the one that takes the hit, and I'm totally okay with that. That's the only way we're going to move the needle, and it's the only way people are going to have fun and surprise themselves.
Daniel Stillman:
So, you're the gutter guy.
Demetrius Romanos:
I'm the gutter guy. It's okay. I'm responsible and I'm the gutter guy.
Daniel Stillman:
That's amazing. I think having a playful attitude towards that is so interesting, and a really much more delightful way to lead, because I think sometimes it can be, what if they screw up? It's on me.
Demetrius Romanos:
Yes. Trust obviously comes into play, but if I build my team against our values, if I build them against T system, if we work together a lot of times and get to know each other, these little motley crews start to really surprise you, and why wouldn't we do it that way?
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah, and well, we haven't even talked about is how you design a design team so that you can trust it. Obviously you've done a lot of work to build up the team over the time that you've been with them.
Demetrius Romanos:
I like scrappy teams, and I've always tried to build my teams like these protagonists, like Oceans 11, where there are these crazy masterminds. There's the guy that orchestrates the whole thing. There's these little specialists, there's a weird guy.
Daniel Stillman:
You're George Clooney.
Demetrius Romanos:
I'm like the less attractive George Clooney that tries to build these teams that still solve-
Daniel Stillman:
You got the salt and pepper thing. I'd say it's working.
Demetrius Romanos:
I try. I used to tell my wife I'm like the Greek George Clooney. She had no idea what that meant, but apparently now you do. I actually did a presentation at IDSA in New York a few years ago. It was all about this kind of protagonist path, and about having people come together to do their parts, but do it for a greater picture. So, if you can set a vision, if you can give people the tools, if you can trust each person's expertise and make them feel safe to try things without fear of reprimand, then I think you'll be successful. It's certainly worked for me. I don't have all the answers, but I'm just going with what works for me.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. Is that presentation anywhere on the interwebs?
Demetrius Romanos:
It might be. I certainly have the written copy I can send you. I don't know if it was videoed, it's got to live somewhere.
Daniel Stillman:
It's interesting because thinking about the team and the project as a narrative, as a story that you are constructing together, it's so powerful, especially when you think about, what will the story that the whole organization tell about the experience? You are all building that story together.
Demetrius Romanos:
That was sort of the intent. I'm a big fan of Joseph Campbell and The Hero's Journey, but I sort of took a twist on it and called it the protagonist path. It's really about how I build organizations that work well together for wins.
Daniel Stillman:
Oh man. We're almost out of time. My general question of like, what else haven't we talked about that we should talk about? Can you just tell us a little bit about the protagonist's path? How do we facilitate a protagonist path as leaders if we want to step up?
Demetrius Romanos:
The protagonist path, it's when you think about the guy that might not ... it's a little bit of an unsung hero, for example, Han Solo. He's not the guy that you would ride in on the white horse, but he's definitely an awesome guy that's got a little bit of a rough side to him. But little wins, it always starts with like, how do I build trust? How do I show that what I'm talking about actually works? Then building on that. It's all about bringing people then in together to see a bigger picture, or to action on it together, to set this goal and to divide and conquer.
Daniel Stillman:
Sounds exciting.
Demetrius Romanos:
It is exciting.
Daniel Stillman:
Well, and people need to feel like they are part of this inciting action in a story. There's a moment when Han and Leia get thrown together and something happens, like there's forward movement, and it feels like that's what you're trying to always facilitate and lead.
Demetrius Romanos:
Yeah, and I try to tap into who people are. What's your purpose? Yeah, you got up in the morning so you can get to work, but why do you do what you do? What is your purpose in life? What's the bigger picture, and how can we harness that so we can do some great things together.
Daniel Stillman:
That's amazing. All right, closing thought. What is your purpose, Demetrius? Why do you get up in the morning?
Demetrius Romanos:
This is not to sound lofty, but it's to bring people together to do great things, to make change for other people.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. I would love to know how to be more like you. I'm not even ...
Demetrius Romanos:
I want to be more like you. We all want to be more like Daniel.
Daniel Stillman:
Not true. Demetrius, how do you bring the lightness? You bring a light touch to things. You don't do it heavy, you don't do it hard. You do it light.
Demetrius Romanos:
I don't know. I was always taught to respect ... you've heard this kind of stuff before, respect the janitor just like you respect the CEO. We're just all people. At the end of the day, we're just all little creatures on this earth trying to do our thing to move the ball down the field a little bit. So, if we just all have a little bit of humility, work well together, no one has to be best friends at work, but we sure work better when we like each other, and then we see a bigger reason for doing what we do. Getting people to sort of rally around that. Be honest and open. Say, "Hey, this is not my thing, but that's your thing. Or maybe if this isn't for you, try something else." I don't know. It's just a comfort in my own skin and trying to live through that. I think people respond to that, especially your younger designers when they see the boss say, "I don't know that, but I know this guy that knows that so we're just going to go ask him," and it's okay.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah, modeling. Modeling that behavior that you want to see in other people. So powerful.
Demetrius Romanos:
Yeah, I suppose so.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. How would you describe it? What word would you use for it?
Demetrius Romanos:
Well, I guess it's a level of humility in what I don't know. It's a level of confidence in what I do. I've done this, I've got the battle scars to prove it, I'm still going to learn along the way. I don't have all the answers, but I love going to people that do. Getting to work with you, getting to work with lots of other smart experts in their fields makes me better, and exposing my teams to those people makes them better. So, if you could ground them in those kinds of specialties and then come back together and say, okay, now what can we do? What's our superpowers? This little fantastic eight or 10 or 12, or however big your team is, that's what you do, and this is why, it's your purpose. It's fun
Daniel Stillman:
I want to be respectful of your time. Is there anything else that we have not talked about, you want to make sure that we go on record as saying?
Demetrius Romanos:
Anything in particular? Geez. I mean, I certainly had questions for you, but I want to be mindful of your time too.
Daniel Stillman:
Questions for me. This is not how this works.
Demetrius Romanos:
It's not conversational.
Daniel Stillman:
Touche.
Demetrius Romanos:
Yeah. No, I'm just trying to do my piece to make things better. I think, again, there's a lot of stuff that we watch in the news right now that is so focused on a specific subject, whether it's positive or negative, that we sort of lose sight of the bigger picture. It really is just let's try to do what's right for the world. I did a workshop earlier this year that was specifically around corporate social responsibility and how can we channel that and be better for our end user? It boiled back down to something as simple as like, we got to focus on the environment, because if we don't have a happy planet, how can we have happy families? Everything comes back to something bigger and simpler. To remember that, I think we'd be better for what it is that we do.
Daniel Stillman:
That is an amazing place to end this conversation.
Demetrius Romanos:
Awesome.
Daniel Stillman:
Demetrius ...
Demetrius Romanos:
Fantastic.
Daniel Stillman:
I am thrilled that we're able to get this on tape.
Demetrius Romanos:
Me too.
Daniel Stillman:
It's not tape, but you know what I mean. Thank you for your time. I appreciate it.
Demetrius Romanos:
It's absolutely my pleasure to be here, Daniel. Thanks so much for having me.
Daniel Stillman:
End scene. That was awesome, man.