Today I’m sharing an interview with self-described On-Air Personality on SiriusXM and Idiot Grant Random.
Grant has had a long-time career in radio: In college he was hired to board op Christmas music for WLS-FM in Chicago when it was transitioning from Talk to Country music. He was at the controls the day the station flipped to "Kicks Country," which was really cool in a geeky radio kind of way.
He now hosts on SirusXM’s Octane channel.
Grant has interviewed some big names: from Billy Corgan to Marilyn Manson and many, many in between. So as I transition the show into its fourth season, I thought it would be awesome to sit down with someone who interviews people for a living!
We all need to get amazing information from people at work and in life...and doing it in a way that makes people feel comfortable and excited to share that information is a tremendous skill. So even if you don’t work for a radio company, I suspect you’ll find some gems in here...or at the very least enjoy Grant’s sparkling personality.
Grant was kind enough to host me at Sirus XM’s amazing studios in Midtown Manhattan and share some insights on how to interview people like a rockstar.
Spoiler alert: Ask interesting questions, prepare...and do it, a lot!
Enjoy the conversation...
Show Links
Grant Random on the Web:
https://twitter.com/grantrandom
https://www.instagram.com/grantrandom/
Grant and Marilyn Manson text Justin Beiber: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQbAwXgPphw
Daniel’s Conversation OS Canvas: https://theconversationfactory.com/downloads
Full Transcript
Daniel:
So, I'm going to officially welcome you to the Conversation Factory. What I wanted to do is unedited as possible. What is your favorite way to kick off an interview?
Grant:
It's a good question. It's a great question, Daniel. It's funny, because I kind of struggle with it, because so often, you'll be in a studio, like the studio that we're sitting in now at SiriusXM. And it will often be a studio that I'm not often in, I guess is what I'm trying to say.
Grant:
And so, then you sit down with a guest. In many cases for me, it would be bands, because I interview bands. We'll be chatting and having a really natural fun conversation before the interview starts. But then you got to stop it, because you're like, "Hey, we actually have to start this. We can't just jump in."
Grant:
Then I have to say whatever my spiel to get the interview started. It's kind of a buzzkill, because it's like we were having so much fun talking about all kinds of weird stuff, and now I got to actually do a real thing, but you just try to keep it as loose as it was while saying a bunch of stuff that's not natural like my name, and the name of the thing that we're doing. And then you go into it.
Grant:
I don't know. Sometimes it's hard. I struggle with it. I do. Once the interviews go, the interview part is, I think, the easy part honestly. It's starting interviews off that actually can be very challenging.
Daniel:
That's so interesting. So, this is why I wanted to do this with you. You're one of the only people I know who ... I mean, we all talk to people for a living. That's pretty much, I mean, just go way meta. Everybody talks to people for a living, but you're one of the only people I know who interviews people as part of a main function of your job. And the fact that you do it with famous people makes it even more interesting.
Grant:
Yeah, that's true. It gives an added dimension to it that can provide complications but also can make it a lot of fun, for sure.
Daniel:
This moment of stopping the ... Like in a way, the interview starts way before.
Grant:
Yeah, absolutely. It totally starts way before.
Daniel:
And this is sparking a memory in me. We were talking, I don't know, a couple of weeks ago about ... I don't want to name names and you don't have to name names, but there was a guy who's like, "We can't ask about this thing that everybody wants to know about. Like this band that you used to be in." And they were like, "This is off limits." And you're like, "Well, this is just going to be boring."
Grant:
I mean, I can talk about this.
Daniel:
Yeah?
Grant:
The Oasis thing?
Daniel:
Yeah.
Grant:
Oh, yeah, I can totally talk. So, I had the opportunity to interview Noel Gallagher of Oasis recently. One of the things that the manager said leading up to it ... And this is I think before it was even confirmed. I think it was a she that was telling this to one of our talent people here. So, we have a department here at SiriusXM that is just responsible for getting artists in.
Speaker 3:
Sorry, I didn't quite catch that.
Daniel:
That was Grant's phone trying to participate in the interview.
Grant:
I put it on Do Not Disturb and I don't know ...
Daniel:
Yeah, but you specifically asked her a question. So, she's like, "I'm going to obviously say something to you."
Grant:
I don't know. Yeah. Oh, I said SiriusXM. And so this happens. I'll have my phone in the studio and I'll be on the air talking and I'll say SiriusXM, and then Siri gets triggered.
Daniel:
She doesn't know her name isn't Sirius.
Grant:
No, she just hears the Siri part.
Daniel:
Yeah, I know.
Grant:
This is why as advanced as Siri is, she's still pretty stupid. So yeah, we have talent people who book a lot of these interviews, and so the person, who our talent person, already kind of knew. I was talking to this woman about bringing Noel in and she said, "Listen, I'm not here to be heavy handed, but I'll just tell you that if any of your interviewers ask Noel about his brother, he'll walk out."
Daniel:
Interesting. So it wasn't like we're not doing this if, if you agree to not to. She's saying, "It will go badly for you. Don't go there."
Grant:
She was being totally cool about it. She was giving a heads up.
Daniel:
Oh, interesting.
Grant:
Because also, the challenges here is typically when anybody comes in to our studios to be interviewed, they're not doing just one show. They're doing several shows. And so, yeah, if I'm the guy who's the first person to talk to Noel Gallagher and out of the gate, I said, "So Dude, I want to talk about your brother, Liam." Not only am I ...
Daniel:
You're just messing it up for everybody.
Grant:
I'm screwing it up for everybody. So, it's a huge ... Can I say dick move on this podcast?
Daniel:
Sure. Yeah.
Grant:
It's a huge dick move. And so, then she was being cool about it. And I wasn't actually going to ever really point blank ask him about his brother, because that's not how I would have approached it. I did have some questions that would dance around it.
Grant:
And sure enough, he brought up his brother anyway, so I didn't have to ask him about it. I got him to ... Like for instance, a great part that I'll quote of the interview is that he was talking about the first two Oasis albums were really magical, because at that time, those guys weren't making any money.
Grant:
They were similar to the audience in that they were in the same kind of state of life. Not making a lot of money, sort of very similar, except they were on the other side of the stage, but essentially, going through the same stuff. And then he said after the first two albums, that's when they started making millions of dollars and are buying furs and have chimps, and etc.
Grant:
And, of course, I said, "Wait, Noel, you're telling me you bought a chimp?" And he's like, "No, that was just the guy in my band." Clearly referencing his brother. So, he would go there when he wanted to. I just couldn't go there and make it a thing that I was going to ask him about.
Daniel:
Right. So, tell us about the rift.
Grant:
Right. So, for people who don't know the context is Noel and his brother, Liam, absolutely hate each other, and they have for years. And so if you're holding on hope for an Oasis reunion ...
Daniel:
It's not going to happen.
Grant:
It's probably not going to happen.
Daniel:
But did you want him to talk about that split? I guess the question I'm getting to is like getting stuff you want versus finding what you find in an interview.
Grant:
Say that again.
Daniel:
Getting something you want to get like the golden nugget of like, "I want to get him to say blank or talk about blank." Versus ambling. Just finding whatever is interesting that emerges?
Grant:
Yeah. So, the thing that was annoying about being told that he wouldn't talk about Liam, his brother, is that in every interview, I saw that he'd been doing leading up to my interview with him. He was talking about his brother, so that was annoying.
Grant:
But at the same time, it was instructive, because everybody is talking to him. Somehow, that's coming up in all of the interviews. So, by the time I get to him, which was after all these other interviews, is it really that novel to be asking about his brother? Because there's nothing new, the news was that they hate each other.
Speaker 4:
Garbage?
Grant:
No garbage. Thanks. Okay. The breaking news is, there is no breaking news. They hate each other. They've hated each other for a long time and nothing has really changed. So, then that actually, for me, it leads me to want to get something else out of him and something different. So, it's not so Liam-focused, because he's already been talking about it a lot.
Grant:
Yeah, I could try to get him to talk about it, but yeah, as we said, if I asked him point blank about it, he'd walk out. He ended up referencing his brother anyway. And for me, that was good enough, because I couldn't not talk about it, but he referenced his brother, so that was great. And in the process, I focused on other stuff.
Grant:
I asked him about his rivalry with Damon Albarn from Blur, and got to find out about the first time that he and Damon actually did a song together, because they were fierce rivals in the 90s. Those bands hated each other and they said horrible things about one another.
Grant:
And then got older and realized that was just a bunch of posturing and stupid stuff and being competitive. And eventually, at some point, they became friendly and Noel joined Damon on stage at one point and then Damon asked Noel to sing on a song with him for Gorillaz, and then went on to explain to me.
Grant:
I asked him, I said, "What was it like to be in a studio with his former rival making a song together?" And he's like, "Well, Damon had this picture up on, like propped up on something, and he said, 'We're going to make a song. We're going to write a song about that picture.'"
Grant:
And so, of course, I naturally asked, "Noel." I said, "Have you ever written a song that way?" He's like, "Of course not. It's crazy, but I did it, because I'm like, 'All right, sure. We're going to do this,' and we made a song together."
Grant:
So, I thought that was really interesting, and that's something I didn't hear him talk about anywhere else. I also asked him, I said, "What was your favorite song that one of your contemporaries in the UK wrote?" Because he didn't care about any of the American music. He was all into like ...
Grant:
That's a funny thing is, while he was very competitive, he actually really liked all the stuff, the Britpop stuff. And he said his favorite songs were Sonnet from The Verve. That's a song that he wished he would have written. And Beetle-Bomb.
Daniel:
That was one of the questions you asked him, right? Like, "What's a song you wish you had written?" Was that the ...
Grant:
Right. What's one of the songs that you wish that you would have written from one of your peers did? And so Sonnet from The Verve.
Daniel:
That's just a wonderfully evocative question. Is that a question you've asked before?
Grant:
I may have, but I don't ask it often. It depends if it's a really talented songwriter, a prolific songwriter. And, to be fair, a lot of the people that I interview are not prolific songwriters.
Grant:
To be fair, because to be clear, I do a lot of newer bands, so they just haven't had the benefit of time. Oasis is a band that made their name 20 years ago. And so yeah, Noel has had the time and the opportunity to become a prolific songwriter.
Daniel:
So, let's take a step back. You today, as a DJ, and an interviewer of talent, versus when you got started, what's the difference? How have you grown? How have you developed? Have you developed? Are you better at this than you used to be?
Grant:
That's a great question. I was terrible at interviewing people. Terrible. Terrible. I used to do it not enough. Because where I was, I was at, what was then XM Radio and that was before XM and Sirius merged.
Grant:
And so, we were trying a lot of different things. And so, we weren't doing a lot of standard radio interviews. And so, the result was, I wasn't getting an opportunity regularly to sit down and do a regular interview. A lot of times I would sit down with an artist and I would be trying to pull sound bites out of that person. So, I used to use ...
Daniel:
Trying to pull sound bites out of a person that sounds hard to do.
Grant:
Well, it wasn't that hard, because a lot of times it was pretty straightforward stuff. Let's say, an artist had a new album coming out, I would go through the track listing of the new album, and have them speak about that individual track. And that would be a piece of audio we would isolate and have indefinitely, to use as something as like a setup for the song.
Grant:
So, it was actually kind of more productive because we were getting audio we could use for longer versus doing interviews. Yeah, you can use them again, but they happen in a moment and they're most valuable in that moment. And shortly after that, we'll encore interviews here, but they don't last that long. Whereas, sound bites last longer.
Grant:
So anyway, I wasn't doing a lot of regular interviews. And I was super nervous about it. I was self-conscious about it because I wasn't good at it. And, I wasn't doing it regularly enough. So, every time I would do it, I would get very anxious. And I had multiple instances where I also didn't know how to prepare for interviews.
Daniel:
So, let's talk about those two pieces like preparing for the interview, and then, I guess, managing yourself when you're inside the box.
Grant:
I'll say this. I wouldn't be prepared enough and therefore, I would panic in the interview. So, I just wasn't coming up with enough questions, typically. And this would happen to me often, for some reason. And I don't know why I kept repeating the same mistake. Again, probably because I wasn't doing it regularly enough.
Grant:
And so then I get into the interview, and instead of listening to what the person was saying after I asked the question, I would be sweating it out, trying to figure out, "Okay, what's the next question? What am I going to ask next? What do I say next?"
Grant:
Which would take me out of the moment and then I wouldn't be listening. And then I wouldn't be able to follow up that person's answer if they said something that sparks interest. And so, they weren't good interviews, because again, not prepared enough. And again, I was just literally not coming up with enough questions.
Daniel:
And so, in conversation theory, there's this idea of the thread of a conversation. And this is something that people use right? It's common language of, "Oh, I lost the thread," and that's literally what you're doing there is, not picking up on the thread of whatever they're putting down. Because you're asking your next question. You're sort of just ping-ponging around.
Grant:
Yeah.
Daniel:
Instead of like, "Oh, here's something that I'm just interested in and I'm just going to do ..."
Grant:
That you just said that I want to go deeper on.
Daniel:
Yeah.
Grant:
And you'll hear it. You'll hear it in people who aren't experienced interviewers, or, I don't know, not skilled at it. I don't know how you want to say it, where you'll hear them ask a question and the person says something super interesting that really deserves a follow up and they'll go right to the next question. Like they weren't even listening.
Daniel:
What's the skill there that's lacking?
Grant:
They don't trust their ability to be spontaneous. They're not comfortable with being spontaneous in the interview. Because the reality is, you have to listen because one, the interviewee appreciates it and they can tell. They can tell when you're listening to what they're saying and actually asking something based on what they said.
Grant:
So, the interviewee appreciates it, plus, it just makes for a better conversation because that's how conversation works. You want your interviews to be natural. But if you're not listening to what they're saying, and not following up on things that they're saying, then it's not. Then, you're just plowing through a list of questions that you prepared.
Grant:
Because you get inspired by something that the person says, and a lot of times the follow-up questions based on the things that they say, are actually often the better questions than what you had walked in with.
Grant:
And that's the whole thing is, you have to listen. You have to listen. And sometimes the listening will dictate dramatically where the interview is going to go. And I'll give a good example. A great example, and again, this is because I have a unique set of people that I have the privilege of interviewing. I got to interview Marilyn Manson. I think it was two years ago now.
Daniel:
I remember this. Yeah.
Grant:
And Marilyn Manson came into Sirius XM, and his first stop of the day was The Howard Stern Show. He was Howard's guests for that particular day. And, I actually was able to hear some of the interview because I was kind of curious as to what Howard was going to ask, because I was going to be interviewing Marilyn right after Howard's interview. And I didn't want to repeat the same stuff.
Grant:
What became apparent is, that Marilyn became increasingly loose as the Stern interview progressed. The reason that he became increasingly loose, and I'm not really speaking out of turn here, it's because he had been drinking. He parties. He has a good time.
Daniel:
Was he drinking during the interview?
Grant:
He was absolutely drinking during the interview.
Daniel:
Just like we are. They make for good interview.
Grant:
Like we are.
Daniel:
They make for good interviews.
Grant:
Cheers. Cheers.
Daniel:
Clink. Clink.
Grant:
Yes, indeed. So, by the time I got Marilyn, he was lubed up as they say. And so, I had, and as I typically do with any interview, I'll have my laptop in front of me, and I will have ... That's perfect.
Daniel:
Yeah, I was trying to get that audio.
Grant:
Yeah, it's good. I had my laptop in front of me and I will have my interviews mapped out in Evernote. I will have sort of a ...
Daniel:
And so, you have it mapped out in Evernote?
Grant:
I do.
Daniel:
And then, do you have that on your phone?
Grant:
No, I have it on my laptop.
Daniel:
You have your laptop, all right, because you don't want to ...
Grant:
I have it open. The benefit of that is this. And I know that there's some people, peers ...
Daniel:
Can you show me? You don't have your laptop? I'd love to look at your staff.
Grant:
I'll show it to you. There are peers of mine who frown upon having notes during interviews. And I think that, that is bullshit because, I think that you want to eliminate obstacles during the interview.
Grant:
And I don't want to be racking my memory during an interview to try to remember what my questions are, because then I'm not listening to the person. So yeah, it's not a good idea to have a piece of paper that you have your questions on, because for one, papers can be noisy. So, that's not good for the interview, number one.
Grant:
Number two, they rest flat on like the table or console, wherever you're sitting. We have a little console kind of a countertop in front of us. So then, your eye contact is down.
Daniel:
Because you're often dealing with people who are in the studio with you, eye to eye.
Grant:
Yes, most of the time. Most of the time. Occasionally, we'll do remote stuff with our studios in Los Angeles, for instance. I did one recently.
Daniel:
So, you don't want to break the line of sight as much?
Grant:
Well, yeah. By having my laptop open, then my eyes aren't drifting down as far because I'm looking at a screen that is elevated, that's up. And so ...
Daniel:
I mean, this is designing, you are designing this whole conversation that you're having. You have the laptop. If you were interviewing me, the laptop would be here. And that would just be ... Now, you don't feel like that piece of technology between us breaks the vibe?
Grant:
Definitely not. Absolutely not. Because reality is, oftentimes I'm not really looking at it much. Because I already kind of really know what I'm going to be doing. The only times that I look at it are in the instances where I have an artist or somebody who, like recently, I had somebody show up really late.
Grant:
And so then, the interview that I had planned has to be condensed, and I have to condense it on the fly. So, I don't have time to map it out. "Hey, wait, let me reorganize my thoughts." No I have to jump on the moment.
Grant:
And so then, I have to, in addition to asking questions and listening to answers, also think about, "Okay, what am I cutting? I going from four segments," Because often we do these in segments that air between music.
Grant:
"I have to go to three. So, what am I going to cut? What do I keep? How do I condense?" And so, that's when looking, having notes in front of you, is very helpful.
Grant:
And so, to go back to the Marilyn Manson thing, as we established, he'd been drinking and so he was feeling really good by the time I got to him and I started trying to go through what my notes were. But he was, again very loose. And he was going off in all of these tangents, which honestly were a lot of fun.
Grant:
About five minutes in, I realized that all this stuff that I had my Evernote was useless and I shut my laptop. I push it aside, and I said, "We're just going to go for a little ride together." And it ended up being a really awesome conversation. It was really funny.
Grant:
I was asking him about what music he listened to. He actually handed me his phone, so I could go through his Spotify. He, at the time, was promoting a new album and was seemingly having this feud with Justin Bieber.
Grant:
And so, as I was going through his phone, I was able to very subtly address that and say, "I'm looking through your music, and I'm not seeing anything from Justin Bieber." And so, that of course open the doors for him to discuss the feud, at which time he then pulled up the text message exchange that he had with Justin Bieber. Gave me the phone to look at it.
Grant:
So, at the top of the screen in his message app on iPhone, it said Justin Bieber. So then, we went through, and I actually read the exchange between them, which became something that got blasted all over the internet. It was sort of became viral.
Daniel:
That's awesome.
Grant:
Which was really fun. And it was great because, again, that was going out of my comfort zone. I'm comfortable in going off script, but it was going away from what I had planned, because I realized, "Okay, this isn't going to work because he's drunk, and he's having fun, and he's kind of ... We're doing the Marilyn Manson show now, and I'm just going to enjoy it and be a part of it." And it turned out to be great. It was a really fun, awesome conversation.
Daniel:
Do you think younger Grant, early Grant interviewing ... And I'll tell you the origin of this question because I feel like there's this tension between having good questions to ask and following on whatever they say, and then leaving your questions completely.
Daniel:
And you're telling me interesting stories of all three of those things happening. And I'm wondering, what's changed from early Grant to now, in terms of being able to ask better questions follow on and leave your script?
Grant:
It's experience, it's being ...
Daniel:
That's unhelpful.
Grant:
I know. I'm going to get there. Going to get there. It's doing these interviews and like to reference what I was talking about earlier is, I wasn't doing them frequently enough. And so, every time I did them, they were not fun because they were terrifying and I wasn't getting my reps as they say like in sports. You need to get your reps in, before you can be comfortable.
Grant:
And so, it evolved over time that specifically when I moved from Washington DC to New York City to where the SiriusXM headquarters are. A very brief synopsis of my life is, I was very much a broadcaster. And I had a track back into school to potentially reinvent myself and decided I didn't really want to do that.
Grant:
And so, I ended up re-embracing the media world. That involved me moving to New York City and then working out of our headquarters where a lot of people didn't actually know who I was for SiriusXM. Even though I'd been on SiriusXM for a few years at that point.
Grant:
But because I wasn't in the offices, people didn't know who I was. So, I got here and the first thing I did is, I started volunteering for interviews. "Give me interviews. I want to do as many interviews as I possibly can." And I would do them and I would immediately get the tape and I would listen to the tape, or the recording. Tape doesn't exist.
Daniel:
Yeah, we were talking about this.
Grant:
We were talking about this earlier.
Daniel:
We're dating ourselves.
Grant:
Absolutely, there is no tape, but I would listen back to the recordings and I would hear what I liked and hear what I didn't like. And I have the ability to listen to myself now after hearing myself for many years. And I'm not self-conscious about the way my voice sounds because I've heard it a million times and it is what it is.
Daniel:
Is your voice for radio different than your normal voice?
Grant:
It's only more projected. So, like I don't have a radio voice. Some people, "Hey, everybody!" That kind of thing? I don't do that. Because, you have to be more authentic unless you're doing like a character. Which, in that case, it's fine.
Daniel:
But Grant Random is not that different from Grant Bleeped who we know and love.
Grant:
Yeah, yeah.
Daniel:
Because then I'll just say this, you ask good questions in life. You are a good conversationalist in life. Janet has had the experience of when you're a new person in our group, not everyone always asks thoughtful, deep follow-up questions. That's something that, this habit has infected the rest of your life. This is just how you are now.
Grant:
Yeah. I mean, it's a good question like in terms of, if I was a good conversationalist before or if I was good at asking questions before. But, the benefit of having multiple reps, as I was saying, I just started doing a ton of interviews when I got here.
Grant:
And, I realized that there will be interviews I wouldn't be happy with when I was done and I would dig into that and then find out why didn't I like that? Or, what did I do wrong there? I would just do a deep-dive into the interview and be honest with myself, where didn't go well?
Grant:
I would constantly be doing that after every single one. Also in the process, I also got better at mapping out the interviews ahead of time. So that's the big thing like I was saying before, I would panic early on because I didn't have enough questions.
Grant:
I also didn't really know how to improvise very well. Because again, you have to be comfortable in the situation to improvise. To be able to think on the fly, "Okay, I've lost 10 minutes from this interview and I have to condense what I'm doing. Now what?" And be able to do it because I'm comfortable I'm not going to panic.
Grant:
Early me wouldn't have been able to do that. I'd freak out and I would have a hard time, it would throw me. [crosstalk 00:27:42] I know I'm kind of going off in [crosstalk 00:27:44].
Daniel:
No, no, no. This is perfect. I want to talk about mapping because this is that [crosstalk 00:27:50].
Grant:
I would love some more of this ...
Daniel:
He just slid his empty cup towards me.
Grant:
I know. It's what happens. So, yeah.
Daniel:
Today's show has been brought to you by Little Wolf.
Grant:
It's very tasty.
Daniel:
And the letters B and C and the number four.
Grant:
I've not had this before and I'm enjoying it.
Daniel:
Somebody left this at my house. Easily, Rob could've brought this to our house.
Grant:
Okay.
Daniel:
I am curious about mapping and I'll tell you my motivation for this question, which is that there's two aspects of threading and conversations. Like word to word makes a sentence that makes sense. And we've talked about also threading, where your next question picks up the thread from what somebody said.
Grant:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Daniel:
One of the things, one of the insights I've started to have about conversations is that threading is also like the arc. The narrative arc. Not just sentence to sentence, to sentence making sense, but then you as a designer of that big arc of open, explore and close, where you want it to go.
Grant:
Yes.
Daniel:
Because that list of questions isn't just a list of questions. It's trying to build to something.
Grant:
So, to speak to that, yeah, there's definitely, for me, I've improved in figuring out how to arc stuff. For instance, in a lot of instances, typically, there'll be an artist in here that has something to promote. Often, that's the least interesting thing that there is to talk about. Often, not always.
Grant:
But a lot of times it's the obligatory thing, that the reason that they're in the building is, this big person from some other thing is doing some solo project that probably maybe not a lot of people are going to care about. So, that's always the first thing we talk about. That's the first thing. You get it out of the way.
Daniel:
You get it out of the way.
Grant:
You get it out of the way ...
Daniel:
In order to what? Reduce their anxiety that they're going to get to talk about it or?
Grant:
Well, you kind of lead with the thing that you got to do. And then you tease ahead. Like for me, I often will do my stuff, as I mentioned is broken up in segments. So then, I'll tease the thing that we're going to ask about. Like their main thing that you might be really interested in. Or that people are going to be mainly interested in.
Grant:
So then, that will be the next thing. Riskier questions will always go at the end for instance, because if you're going to be asking something that potentially could piss somebody off, you want to save that for the last part of it.
Daniel:
Just in case Noel storms off.
Grant:
In case Noel storms off. Although, I didn't piss him off. The follow-up to that, let me just say, the follow-up to the Noel interview is that, it worked out really well to the point that, his manager wanted a copy of the interview because she said that she hadn't heard Noel open up that way in an interview before. Especially in talking about a lot of the stuff that she talked about, that we talked about.
Grant:
It was really interesting. I didn't know because I'm not really listening to a lot of his interviews but he opened up in ways that he hadn't with me, that made her want to get a copy of that. To have that for ... I mean, I don't know what she's going to do with it.
Daniel:
That's really cool.
Grant:
It was very cool. Yeah, that went well. But yeah, so typically, you kind of get the business out of the way at the beginning. And, I know, to reference an interview form that people are very familiar with. Late night TV will do it very differently.
Grant:
They'll try to do fun stuff first, and then they'll wedge in the, "Okay, you're in such and such movie, let's take a look at the clip now." This is why late night TVs, I don't know. I'm not necessarily a big fan of late night TV interviewing. It's just a lot of fluff. I don't know, like I don't ... I'm not saying that people don't do fun stuff. I gravitate toward trying to do fun interviews.
Daniel:
Do you think it's maybe because they're live? I mean, they're not. I mean, they're not live, they're taped. But they are in front of a live studio audience. You are doing that also, because there's all that preamble that's not even getting taped.
Grant:
Yeah. Well, the other thing I didn't know until I went to a Stephen Colbert taping is that they edit the hell out of those interviews.
Daniel:
Yeah, they do.
Grant:
And I didn't know that. I mean, I should have known that. I should have assumed that. But I also know they do pre-interviews. And so the conversations, the interviews, in late night TV are often, they're not scripted, but they kind of are. Because, you know kind of the things to ask the guests about.
Daniel:
Yeah, I mean, usually when I do a podcast, and this is a separate question, which I'll ask you, which is like, how much of yourself do you bring into the interview? Because you're not the famous person in this case, we're just ... I know you because we drink on Sundays.
Grant:
Yes.
Daniel:
Except for last night because you weren't there.
Grant:
I wasn't there last night. Shame on me.
Daniel:
I often do that sort of five or 10 minutes of, "Here's the arc. What would you like to talk about? Here's what I'm interested in asking you about." And say, "I'm going to sort of ask you this last question, is there anything we haven't talked about?" And then cut the tape and say, "Was that cool? Is there anything we need to cut out?"
Grant:
Yeah. I mean, a great recent example for me is that, I got the opportunity to interview Mike McCready from Pearl Jam. Very brief back story, I'm a huge Pearl Jam fan.
Daniel:
Wait, because we were talking a month or two ago about your ideal lifetime get, that was it.
Grant:
Yeah, because I hadn't interviewed anybody from Pearl Jam.
Daniel:
This just really ...
Grant:
This just happened.
Daniel:
Congratulations.
Grant:
Thank you.
Daniel:
How did it feel? That's so awesome.
Grant:
So, the thing is, as things often happen, they don't happen in the way that you ideally would imagine them. So for instance, if I were going to know that I was going to interview somebody from Pearl Jam, I'd like at least a week in advance to prepare. For this one, I only found out the day before.
Daniel:
What would you do with a week? Like, is that how long you normally take to ...?
Grant:
I would prefer to have at least a week.
Daniel:
Because you listen to some interviews, see what else they're talking about?
Grant:
You dig into what's relevant at the time. You just want to have time to think about it. You want to have time to think about your questions, because you have limited amount of time. And so, there's a lot of stuff. I could have spent hours with the lead guitarist of Pearl Jam, but I didn't have that. So, you have to edit yourself.
Grant:
So, to kind of go to your question before the interview, I was told I was going to be interviewing Mike McCready from Pearl Jam, because he's got this super interesting side project that is like music slash art kind of a thing. It's really interesting. I actually saw it performed live and it was really cool.
Grant:
He does it this woman who's an artist, like an actual painter, but they trade roles in the execution of it. It's just super interesting and really fun, and free, and it's really cool. But I didn't know, in advance of interviewing him, that she was going to be a part of the interview. His partner in the project. So, that's a major curveball to be ...
Daniel:
Right, because normally, if it was just him, you would have asked him questions about a million other things that are his history. But with two of them ...
Grant:
Well, it was two of them. I mean, I was already going to ask him about this project. But then, before the interview started, I had to ask him. I said, "Listen, we're going to talk about your project and I'm excited to ask you about it. But, I would also like to ask you some Pearl Jam questions. Is that okay?"
Grant:
Because the bulk of my interview that I had planned for was Pearl Jam questions. Because there's also an expectation from the audience. Specifically for this particular channel. They were going to want to hear more about the Pearl Jam stuff than the project. Even though, and to be fair, this project is super cool and interesting.
Daniel:
But her history as an artist, her backstory is maybe less interesting to the audience.
Grant:
And we didn't get into her backstory. But, the discussion about the project was super interesting. But yeah, I had to ask him because the bulk of what I had planned to talk to him about was Pearl Jam. And so I asked him beforehand. I said, "Listen, is it okay, if we talk about Pearl Jam?"
Grant:
And if he would have said no, I would have been in trouble. And fortunately, he said, "Yeah, we'll see." Because, I don't know. I think, depends on what I was going to ask him. What I asked him turned out to be fine. I didn't say anything that was out of turn or I wasn't asking him questions that he couldn't answer or anything. But I had to preface that with him beforehand.
Grant:
To go back to what you were saying before, younger version of me, being thrown into that situation where instead of having the one person, I have the two. And plus, we had less time than what we thought. There's all kinds of things happening that would have been too distracting for a younger version of me to have really been able to get past.
Grant:
Fortunately, I'm able to sort of juggle multiple things in my head during these interviews, because I'm comfortable. Even in that scenario, he was the lead guitarist of essentially my favorite band. But I wasn't thinking about that. I'm like, "No, I need to make a good interview happen here. And what are we going to do? We've got the curveball with this woman being a part of it."
Grant:
Which turned out to be fine. She was a lovely woman who I had a chance to talk to in the hallway beforehand, and kind of bonded over small talk. It worked out but it was having the comfort level of having done this a lot and having to improvise in the moment a lot.
Grant:
That allowed me to not freak out in a situation that, yeah, is not ideal. Where you have an extra person that wasn't supposed to be in the interview. And that potentially could completely screw up what you had planned.
Daniel:
This is great and that's really a fascinating story. My brain is going towards this thing. There's the outer conversation that you designed. You design these ... Honestly, I'm thinking about my interviews. I've got sticky notes all around and I've never made like a list of like, "Here's the order." You're definitely making me think like, "Oh, what would it look like to really ..."
Grant:
If you're doing it in order?
Daniel:
To think about an order, yeah. One of the things that's sort of come up over the last couple of years of me doing the podcast is, this idea of the outer conversations. You're designing this conversation between you and another person. And the conversations I design are like, I design group conversations.
Grant:
Sure.
Daniel:
But there's also the inner conversation. You with you, like Grant with the parts of Grant. I'm wondering if meditation, and your practice of meditation has had anything to do with your development as an interviewer. With your development, especially with regards to being able to manage yourself.
Grant:
I think without a doubt. I mean, my practice with meditation and I think we've talked about this, but for the purpose of being on the record here is that, it was about six months after I had started meditating regularly, on a daily basis that I noticed that I had this surge in creativity that I'd never experienced before.
Grant:
It wasn't something that I was looking for. I always am quick to point that out, because a lot of times when you make these claims, people will say, "Oh, you were looking." No, I didn't know. I just was meditation because I knew it was a good practice. It was something I needed in my life.
Grant:
I was coming out of a turbulent time emotionally. Coming out of a relationship that didn't work out. I was dealing with some anxiety and things, and I was just trying to get to a more chill, relaxed place.
Grant:
I won't say out of nowhere, but six months later, I realized suddenly, I kicked into this gear creatively that I had never experienced professionally. The only thing that had changed, the only that was different was meditation.
Grant:
I think, more directed toward interviewing, it allowed me to think about interviews in a deeper way for sure. It allowed me to think about my planning. Again, plotting out the arc of the interview in a better way. Because my interviews definitely got better after that too.
Grant:
It gave me more of, I guess, a relaxed nature in these situations that can often be a little anxious. Because yeah, you're interviewing somebody, maybe in the instance of this guy from Pearl Jam who I greatly respect, and so you're trying not to let nerves interfere with the interview.
Grant:
You're trying to make sure that you execute on what you wanted. You're trying to do a good interview. So yeah, it absolutely caused me to be able to be more relaxed in those situations and not panic. Truthfully, I have panicked in interviews before and it's not fun. Again, going back to the early Grant interviews. I would panic.
Daniel:
I mean, that's amazing. What do you attribute that to? What do you think it is about meditating that makes it possible to do those things that you talked about?
Grant:
I think that based on what I know of it, and I still feel like I'm just scratching the surface of my knowledge of meditation, but our brains need rest. They don't get to rest. Because a lot of people, a lot of us, are always thinking. You can't not think. You're always mentally active. And perhaps, overactive mentally and that's exhausting.
Grant:
Our brains don't get rest when we sleep because they're still moving. We're dreaming. Still, the engine is still spinning. And so, meditation gives us a chance to let our brain get a little respite. I think that makes all the difference in the world, that you got to give your brain a break. I think it's as important as physical exercise and fitness, or really anything else. Nutrition or anything, it's just as important if not more.
Daniel:
I agree 100%. I'm glad you said it. One of the things that I've learned is that, the spaces in a conversation are as important as the words. Right? Because otherwise, it's a non-stop ... It's just bagels ... Sorry, that's an inside joke guys. It's too long to explain that.
Grant:
We don't have enough time to get into it, but [crosstalk 00:43:28].
Daniel:
You don't want to know.
Grant:
It was fun at the time.
Daniel:
Inner silence, comfort within our silence is also comfort with outer silence.
Grant:
Absolutely. I agree with that. I mean, I just let that sink in, but absolutely. If you don't have comfort with your inner silence, you're not going to have comfort with outer silence. That's very indicative of going back to younger Grant doing interviews, not being prepared properly, panicking about what was happening next, "What am I going to ask next? Oh shit, what do I ask next?"
Grant:
It was also because I was not a very settled person at those times too. Yeah, I don't think there's any coincidence that me as a person, I am way more relaxed and calm. I don't really deal with anxiety at this point like I did earlier in my life.
Grant:
So, yeah. Having all of that settled internally, makes me able to deal with these situations that now are just ... Again, I used to be terrified. Let me just tell you, I used to be terrified of doing interviews. Terrified.
Daniel:
And yet you wanted to do them more? Why did you want to get better at them?
Grant:
Because, I knew I had to do more of them. I wasn't going to get better not doing them and being afraid. I had to just throw myself at them.
Daniel:
But why get better at them at all? Why don't just avoid it and run away?
Grant:
Because, I wanted to not have that weak link in my broadcasting repertoire. It was just the thing that ... It's become easier for me to craft what I do in terms of broadcasting. What I say when I'm talking on a particular channel or whatever, like here on SiriusXM.
Grant:
That part has gotten easier over the years. It took a lot of work too, but the interview part was something that meant a lot to me because it pissed me off that I was bad at it. I just figured, I have to get better at this. I have to get better at this and so therefore, I'm going to just do as many of these things as possible. And so, I did. I got to New York and I started doing interviews every week. Interviewing anybody and everybody.
Grant:
Having a whole experience of them, interviewing major artists, but also on the flip side, interviewing people who've never been interviewed before. Or bands who are really new in it, and then I'd have to coach them on how to talk in the interview.
Daniel:
Really? Okay, tell me about that. That's fascinating.
Grant:
Some of these bands, you could tell like they needed some help. It's fine, because I can relate. I needed help as an interviewer. So, I would explain to them, "All right, here's what we're going to talk about in this next segment." Again, because often my interviews are broken up into segments.
Grant:
So, I'd say, "Here's what we're going to talk about in this next segment. I'd like you to talk about this particular thing, or that particular thing." And I would guide them. Oftentimes, based on conversations we would have before the interview started. Or, sometimes ...
Daniel:
You paint the arc for them in a way?
Grant:
Yes.
Daniel:
I mean, what's crazy about this is, this is exactly what people who listen to my podcast who are facilitating meetings and leading organizations and teams. This is a leadership skill. Painting a picture for somebody and showing them the way forward in a way that is acceptable to them. That's leadership.
Grant:
I mean, I didn't think of it that way at the time. I was just thinking, I need to make this interview work and this person is so green that if I don't intervene here, this interview is going to suck.
Daniel:
Right, but I could imagine you saying that stuff to somebody in a way that they would reject.
Grant:
I suppose, but again in these scenarios, and this would be different from, I guess, more of a workplace scenario that maybe your listeners would be relating to is that, I think you would have newer bands coming into what is a major media organization.
Grant:
SiriusXM, I'm assuming most of the people listening to this podcast know. But it's a major satellite radio and digital audio outlet that serves North America. That can be really intimidating if you're a new band. You just got signed to a record label and you're 20-something, early 20s. You're kind of freaked out.
Grant:
Typically what I found is that, often those people who I had to coach in those situations were receptive. Because they didn't know any better and they hadn't had a chance to have an ego spin out of control yet. And that does happen, especially with younger bands who had gotten enough of a taste and enough comfort level, that typically the egos are with the younger bands and not the more established bands. Which is interesting.
Grant:
Yeah, typically they were receptive to it, because I'm trying to make their job easier because they're freaked out. Oftentimes, bands are freaked out. I talk to bands all the time and sometimes they'll actually admit to me, "Oh yeah, I was super nervous about this."
Grant:
Or, I interviewed a band recently who I'd interviewed three or four times previously. And the singer said, "I'm normally really nervous before these things, but because I know you, and I've talked to you before, I was able to be relaxed going into this."
Grant:
And this is a band that's not a new band and actually is a band, this particular band that I'm referencing has been nominated for Grammy's a few times. So, they're not one of these green super new bands. They're somebody that's been around for a little bit.
Daniel:
Do you have any advice for people to break the ice and make people feel at ease? Maybe that pre-interview stuff.
Grant:
Pre-interview stuff is so important.
Daniel:
Because you said, "Oh, I was doing small talk with her out there." Not everybody knows how to do small talk. What's your approach to that sort of comfort [crosstalk 00:49:52] phase?
Grant:
Yeah. It's super simple. People often don't like to talk about themselves. Again, for me, it's a little different because I'm talking to people that have to talk about themselves all the time.
Grant:
But, if we can talk about something else before the interview, I score huge points with that because it puts them at ease, because I'm not being a fanboy and say, "Oh my gosh, I really love that one album."
Grant:
No. I'm like, maybe if I know that they're a fan of a certain team, a sports team. We'll talk about, "Hey, how are your Redskins doing or whatever?" And like, kind of just make it super casual and super not about them, I guess, is very helpful. It's super helpful.
Grant:
Talking about books. I've had great conversations with artists about books, like somehow book comes up, and I'll recommend a book to them or something. Talk about anything other than themselves beforehand, is hugely important ...
Daniel:
Misdirection. So, just like going the opposite direction.
Grant:
Yeah, it puts them at ease. It puts them at ease that, "Yeah, I'm just a regular dude. And I'm asking them about regular stuff." Yeah, we'll talk about them once the thing starts, but if we could talk about something else, and just be kind of casual and chill about it, and beforehand, that makes all the difference in the world. As opposed to like, just going in cold. Oh my gosh, no.
Daniel:
Yeah. So, you got to warm them up. So, we're getting close on time. And I want to ask you for like ...
Grant:
You're going to kick me out of here? Out of my own studio, you're going to kick me out?
Daniel:
Well, this is not the Joe Rogan. I almost said the Seth Rogen show. It's definitely not the same person.
Grant:
Definitely on Seth Rogen.
Daniel:
I would listen to the Seth Rogen show. Joe Rogan, I mean, I don't want to interview for two hours. I mean, we could talk for two hours, which is fine.
Grant:
He goes long.
Daniel:
He goes long.
Grant:
I mean, it's only when he breaks out joints for Elon Musk for instance, you're going to go long.
Daniel:
Yeah, I know. That's terrible. Yeah, we get plenty more whiskey, so what advice for people in terms of asking good questions? Do you have a framework or a perspective on the types of questions you ask and what makes one good and maybe not so good, or better, best?
Grant:
Well, something that I have, a philosophy that I prescribed to, and I can't always stay true to it, but I say it to a lot of people is, especially again, the context is, I interview bands often, mostly.
Grant:
I'm trying to ask them questions that I can't ask anybody else. Which means, I'm being specific. And I'll give you an example of questions that aren't specific. Often, you'll hear DJs, hosts, radio hosts, whatever, podcast hosts even, who will talk to a band and they're not prepped enough. They haven't done the research. They're not familiar with the person they don't know.
Grant:
So, let's say, "Hey, so tell me about the new album," for instance, I could literally ask that of any band that I talk to. Right? That's a terrible question. Or, "Hey, so tell me about the tour." Even worse of a question because touring kind of sucks guys.
Daniel:
Right.
Grant:
You're sleeping in a really claustrophobic bunk on a tour bus, and you're not able to defecate on. You can't defecate on tour buses.
Daniel:
Don't shit on the bus.
Grant:
There's no shitting in the bus. So, that's a terrible question too. When possible, and it's not always possible, I try to ask people that I'm talking to, questions that I can only ask them, because it means it's specific. It means that I actually know about them, which again, helps to establish some trust with them so they know I'm not asking some generic thing, because I don't know who the hell I'm talking to.
Grant:
It doesn't mean that I necessarily always know a lot about who I'm talking to. But that's where the research comes in so I'd get to the point that I know enough. That I can sound like I know what I'm talking about when I'm talking to them. So, asking questions that are specific to your subject. Again, it's a rule that I will break myself. I'm not saying that I don't ...
Daniel:
When do you break it? Why do you break it?
Grant:
When do I break it? You can't always do that. Sometimes there's just circumstances where, for instance, I interviewed a band today, earlier today, and it's a time-shifted interview. Meaning that the band has a new album that's going to be out on Friday, but the interview is going to air after Friday. So, I haven't had the opportunity to listen to the album.
Daniel:
They don't even let you listen to it? That seems ridiculous.
Grant:
I mean, to be fair, I probably should have been given a copy of the album beforehand. So, I wasn't, but in the context of the interview, the interview is going to air after the album is out.
Grant:
So, I phrase it in kind of a fun way, because the band is super goofy. And I said, "Listen, I didn't get a chance to listen to the new album yet because I have a shitty work ethic and a drinking problem. So, please, if you would explain to the audience what they can expect on the new album."
Grant:
That's not a great question because it's not specific, because I could ask that of anybody. But in this circumstance, I hadn't had a chance to listen to the album, so I can't talk to it.
Daniel:
But that's a fun way of asking like, "What can we expect of the new album? Let's not just tell me about the album," which for you is a hack question.
Grant:
I think it's ideally not. I was going to say it's ideally not ideal. It's not ideal, but there are certain circumstances where you can't always ask questions that you couldn't ask someone else.
Grant:
I'm just saying that, that's a very good rule of thumb. If you can ask something that's super specific that only applies to that person. And, to call back to what we were talking about before, when you're following up something that they said, you're listening to an answer they give and then you're asking a question based on something they said. That fulfills that requirement beautifully.
Daniel:
Well, 100%.
Grant:
100%. That is, I think, a quality conversation because again you're asking stuff you can only ask of that person.
Daniel:
I'm kind of surprised in a way because I feel like in a lot of lines of work, certainly in my line of work, there's some really, really solid general questions. I'll give you an example. I'm doing this program where we're making them read or asking them to read this book called The Coaching Habit. Which has like seven questions. The whole book is like, "Here are seven questions you should ask and you'll be good at being a coach in your regular every day life."
Daniel:
We're just like, "So, what's on your mind? And what else? If saying yes to that means saying no to what else?" They're little ingots. They've been polished and honed questions where it's like, in one sense I would think that like, "So, tell me about the new album," would be just an evergreen perfect question and then you ask whatever you ask after that.
Grant:
Well, no, because ideally, I would have listened to the album. So, again ...
Daniel:
So, you would say something like, [crosstalk 00:57:37] I saw this about the album, tell me about that.
Grant:
Right. I've interviewed artists who have books out and the worst thing I could say is, "So, tell me about the book." Instead, it's best to read about the book and start going into questions about the book.
Grant:
And again, you were referencing something. I know that there are people ... My thing as a general rule, and so I'm not saying that you have to obey it all the time. Tim Ferriss, who does a podcast. Since we're in the podcast realm, he does his rapid-fire questions that are always the same. "What's the book you've most gifted," that kind of thing. I think those are great questions.
Daniel:
The billboard question is a great question.
Grant:
To be clear, I think those are great questions and I'm not saying that those are bad questions because those are purposefully and very obviously, questions he asks of everybody. But before he gets to those, he's asking meaty questions that are specific to that person.
Grant:
So, again, I'm not saying it's this rule you can't violate. I violate it. I'm just saying that, typically, if the majority of the questions that you're asking your subject are questions you can only ask them, I think you're going to be in a very good place.
Daniel:
Yeah, because it shows that you've done your homework.
Grant:
It shows that you know what you're talking about.
Daniel:
You know what you're talking about.
Grant:
And that establishes credibility with the person you're talking to. Which is going to establish a comfort level with them, and they're going to be more open. And they're probably going to share more than they would if they could tell the person that they're talking to, doesn't know what they're talking about. I know this happens.
Grant:
I know this happens. Artists will tell me that they will talk to people who have no idea about them. And so then, some of the artists will mess with them and give them garbage bullshit answers, and totally fuck with them.
Daniel:
Well, it also feels like you're just sort of going through the motions, which can't feel good to ... These poor people are rich. Not literally poor, but ...
Grant:
Definitely not.
Daniel:
Not literally poor, unless they're Oasis starting out right?
Grant:
Right.
Daniel:
There's this feeling of just going through the motions. They're doing a day of these interviews.
Grant:
That's the thing.
Daniel:
But it sounds like you're thinking about their context, which is, I want to ask them a question where they will respond to it with a certain amount of energy.
Grant:
Yes.
Daniel:
I think this is my definition of a good question. A good question is like, "Phew." It's a potential energy. You're putting potential energy into the question in hopes that it will create a more than equal and opposite reaction.
Grant:
Absolutely. Listen, to go back to what you were saying, yes oftentimes when I get an artist, they're doing a lot of interviews in a particular day. And I know also, especially when it comes to the radio medium, I'll dare say that most interviewers suck. They're not good.
Grant:
And so, these particular artists have to go around and do shitty interview after shitty interview, after shitty interview. And it's frustrating. And so, I know that when they get to somebody who knows what they're talking about and actually is listening to them and is prepared, it means a lot to them.
Grant:
So for me, the greatest thing that I can get from an artist after an interview, is to hear them say, "That was really great. I really enjoyed that." So, at that point, I don't even care. I'm not even thinking about what the listener, what their experience is going to be.
Grant:
I want to make sure that my guests who I'm interviewing has a good experience and enjoys themselves and feels comfortable because they know that I know what I'm talking about. If they feel good about it, once it's over, the listener totally is going to have a good time.
Daniel:
100%. So, you've built this arc, you've done your prep.
Grant:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Daniel:
You've crafted questions that are unique to them that only they would be able to give you [crosstalk 01:01:49].
Grant:
Mostly, and again, I want to make sure that people understand. I don't say that, that's an iron-clad rule, because I do break it. I do break it.
Daniel:
Okay, so I was going to ask you. There's a million questions but what are the questions that you find yourself? Is there a sort of come back to question where you're like, "Okay, when I break the rule, it is ... So tell me about the new album." Is that the question?
Grant:
I'll never ask that unless I have to, like I did with this band whose album wasn't out yet and I didn't have an opportunity to listen to it. I'll never ask that otherwise. I didn't say, "So, tell me about the new album." I tried to figure out the ...
Daniel:
I think you crafted the question very thoughtfully.
Grant:
Right. Yeah, exactly because I knew going into it, I wanted to get them to talk about the album, but without me having listened to it. Yeah, I said, "What can fans expect from the new album?" So, at least come up with a creative way to ask a question that maybe is a little bit more cliché.
Grant:
So, there's that. And in terms of other questions I go back to, yeah. I think I've asked the question, what song do you wish you would've written before? And that's a question I'm okay with asking. Because I asked that of Noel Gallagher, which was really super interesting.
Grant:
I'm pretty sure I asked that of Billy Corgan of Smashing Pumpkins. Because he's a really strong songwriter who not only has obviously written for Smashing Pumpkins for many years, but also he's written for other artists like Courtney Love with Hole and countless others.
Grant:
He's a prolific songwriter, and so to hear him say what song that he wished he would've written. That's a powerful answer.
Daniel:
Yeah, that's like the Tim Ferriss' billboard because like ...
Grant:
That's along those lines.
Daniel:
But you can't ask that of everybody. You can only ask that of somebody who really cares about the craft of songwriting, potentially.
Grant:
Well, somebody who's actually a prolific songwriter. There's a lot of people who care about it but maybe aren't great at it.
Daniel:
So, when you're trying to close the conversation down, you're building your arc, how do you tie the conversation off with a bow at the end?
Grant:
Like I said, well ...
Daniel:
Do you like how meta that ... My meta questions?
Grant:
Yeah, it is very meta, because we are wrapping up. I like that. So yeah, if I do have a risky question, as I said, I'll put that at the end. If I don't have a risky question because I tend to like interviews to be fun, or at least end on a fun note, then I'll put my more ridiculous questions at the end.
Daniel:
Can you give me some example of some ridiculous questions?
Grant:
I don't know if this is appropriate.
Daniel:
I'll mark this explicit. It's fine.
Grant:
So, for instance, I ...
Daniel:
I'm sure Demos and his girlfriend, when they finally listen to this interview, will not be offended right?
Grant:
Okay, so ...
Daniel:
I don't think many children are listening to the Conversation Factory. I'll just put that out there.
Grant:
And if they are, "You know what? Wow. You're really ahead of the game."
Daniel:
Yeah, we'll do the NPR thing like, "If your children are listening, now is a good time to ask them to get out of the room."
Grant:
Do the earmuffs.
Daniel:
Earmuffs. Just tell them earmuffs.
Grant:
So, I interview this really fun band called Steel Panther today. And they ...
Daniel:
Amazing band name.
Grant:
Right, it's a great band name. So, the whole gist of them is that they are essentially, in 2019, they sound like a hair band from the 80s. But they're a comedic band. Their lyrics are super funny referencing their debaucherous lifestyle. I don't know if debaucherous is a word, but I like it.
Daniel:
Debaucherous is a word. Would you put them in the ... In my mind, I'm thinking of like, they might be trying some kick like ...
Grant:
[crosstalk 01:05:38] Yeah, so there's not a joke band, to be clear, but there are layers to them that make them fun. So, their biggest song is a song called Glory Hole. Which I think for people who are listening, we don't need to go into details. Right?
Daniel:
We don't need to go into details.
Grant:
Right. So, my final ...
Daniel:
It's not about glass-blowing. Because I have friends who are listening.
Grant:
Right, definitely not. My question for them, because the whole interview ... And to give context, was super fun and loose, and it was not a very serious interview. This was definitely not me interviewing Noel Gallagher and getting his favorite songs that other people have written.
Grant:
This is a fun, loose, kind of absurd interview. And so, my question for them before, because this was actually in advance to them performing their song Glory Hole. Again, their huge hit.
Grant:
I said, "Before we hear it, it would be great if you guys could share some tips for proper glory hole etiquette for either side of the glory hole." And for them, that was a great question because they like to offer these really goofy answers about, again, you're calling back to these 80s hair band stars who partied way too much. Fornicated way too much. Partied into rehab and into STD clinics and all that.
Grant:
So, they're just kind of a celebration of that, and they're making fun of that. And so, that was a great question for them because they can have a lot of fun with it as they did. And it was a very loose and fun way to wrap things up.
Daniel:
Yeah, that's interesting. I don't have a question with that.
Grant:
I was assuming you weren't going to ask me about glory hole etiquette but ...
Daniel:
Well, no, no, I mean, I don't have a fun way to wrap things up. Usually I say, "Is there anything I haven't asked you that I should ask you?" Because, as we said, the reason I'm talking to you is like, "I always want to be a better interviewer." And this is like, "How do we ..."
Daniel:
And not just me, obviously. This podcast is entirely for me, but everyone has to interview somebody in their life. And not just for jobs, but just getting information out of people.
Grant:
Yeah.
Daniel:
And so, that's what you do for a living, is get good information out of people on a fun and interesting way.
Grant:
Well, I try. I certainly try. I think also, the biggest thing is, if I had bullet points to neatly wrap this up in a bow. It's, yeah, to be as thoughtful as possible, and asking questions unique of the person when possible. Not always possible.
Grant:
Listening, listening, listening, listening, listening, which is something I couldn't do when I was early in my career, because I was so freaked out about, "What am I going to ask next?" That was the script in my head, "What am I going to ask next? Oh, shit, what do I ask next?" Listening to what they're saying so you can follow up on that. And, yeah, there was one other thing and I forgot it, because I was too busy thinking about. Yeah.
Daniel:
And you think part of it was managing yourself? That the [crosstalk 01:08:54] piece.
Grant:
Managing myself, yeah. But it's also practice. It's certainly practice. If I hadn't done a good amount of interviews, yeah, a lot of them would have been disastrous. Because I've had a lot of curveballs thrown at me. And some that I'm not even comfortable talking about. But I've had a lot of curveballs thrown at me that are very deeply, deeply, deeply unsettling where you have to react.
Daniel:
Now, I feel like I have to ask for a curveball that you can talk about.
Grant:
Well, as I mentioned, the ...
Daniel:
But the most famous person you feel comfortable telling us about?
Grant:
I can say that, I interviewed Scott Weiland, with Stone Temple Pilots probably less than a year before he died. And, he was not in a good place by the time I got to him. Because this is a person who was very well-known of having lots of drug issues throughout his life.
Grant:
And yeah, he was not in a good place when he showed up at our studios here at SiriusXM. And, my thought was that, he probably should not have been talking to me. And so, while I was having the conversation with him, I remember looking over at some people that were there. I'm not going to be more specific than that. And I kind of thought, "Shame on them for allowing this guy to be out talking to people." So, that's a good example.
Daniel:
Yeah. And you just had to keep going with the interview regardless?
Grant:
I had to surge forward with it. And again, to be fair and to be very clear, I'm not criticizing Scott. This is a person who had struggled for a long time with substance issues. And, I'm sensitive to the fact that, that's a very difficult place to be, and that I was not judging him in that moment, because I know where he'd been.
Grant:
But I think there were people around him that were perhaps not the best actors in that situation. And, were maybe not guiding him in the right way. But I had to do an interview with him at that point.
Daniel:
Yeah, you're in the room.
Grant:
I got to do it. Yeah.
Daniel:
That's tough.
Grant:
But, thankfully, I had enough comforting experience doing a lot of interviews and getting thrown curveballs that, "Okay, here we are, and this is what I have. And I'm just going to do this as best as I can." And, that's all you can do.
Daniel:
Yeah. You also have the benefit of you have an audio guy. They do cut and clip these things.
Grant:
Yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah, and we also have the option, because most of my interviews are pre-recorded, that we have cut interviews entirely. Where something did not go well, and we'll say, "Yeah, we should not do that. We should not air that."
Daniel:
So, I guess my final question for you is, why don't you have a podcast? When are you going to have a show that I can come on?
Grant:
I didn't see this coming. Yeah, so that's the thing is ...
Daniel:
If you're going to walk away from the interview, this is my last question.
Grant:
I like that. No, that's good. See, that's the risky. You save the risky question for last. Yeah, I am a huge believer in podcasts. And by the way, as I've told you previously, not on the podcast, because this is my first time. I am thrilled that you're doing this, and I think it's a cool niche that you are filling with this topic, with the idea of discussing conversations. Because I think ...
Daniel:
You were like an early consultant before you even did the show.
Grant:
I did, I guess, gave you some thoughts back in the day.
Daniel:
Yeah, we talked about microphones and formats. We talked about formats and stuff like that.
Grant:
Absolutely. I'm thrilled that you're doing it. Because I think that it's a really cool topic, and it's an important topic. I think everybody can benefit from it. The other thing that, I guess I, I was thinking about when I was giving my bullet points I'm just remembering, is that yeah, you want to have goals. Like you do want to have goals going into broadcasts or broadcast interview, conversation, whatever it is.
Grant:
You want to have a handful of goals and you try to meet a few things. Like, if it's just keeping it loose, that's one thing. If it's getting deep into a particular topic, that's one thing. But those are like the overarching goals, however it is that you structure the arch of the conversation. Arc, arch, arc?
Daniel:
If you're in Europe, it's an arch.
Grant:
It's an arch. Here in North America, it's an arc. When you're planning out the arc of the conversation, it's good to have these kind of goals of some things. That was the thing I couldn't think about.
Daniel:
Yeah. Because that's like, why ... I've thought about the title for my third book. I feel like it should be, Why The Fuck Are We Here? I don't know, what the fuck are we talking about? That's the title.
Grant:
I like that. I like that.
Daniel:
It's like, "What the fuck are we talking about?"
Grant:
What the fuck are we talking about?
Daniel:
Because like, "Why are you here in this room? What are we talking about?" It's like, "Well, we're here because you interview people for a living." And I'm like, "I don't know many people like that." You have a star here, and you're like, "What the fuck are we talking about? The new album?" "No, I want to find out about you as a musician, you as a songwriter like you as a monkey owner, or not monkey owner."
Grant:
Right. Absolutely. So, that's a great book title. So, it'll go back to what I was saying. I'm thrilled that you're doing this podcast. I think it's a cool idea. And I've enjoyed listening to it. And so keep it up.
Grant:
In terms of my podcast, the biggest hurdle I keep running into is that, I'm busy with my day job. Being a broadcaster and interviewing people, and talking into a microphone, it's challenging to have the bandwidth to devote to it after hours.
Grant:
But I'm a huge fan of the podcast format. I think, being a lifelong radio fan, I think it's a cool evolution of that. I support it and I absolutely am committed to delving into that area as soon as I can when I'm not too busy doing my day job.
Daniel:
Your fans want it.
Grant:
My fan? Well, I guess I do have fans.
Daniel:
You do.
Grant:
There are people who are interested in hearing it, and I will deliver it to them soon.
Daniel:
If I may, I think one of the things that I've learned about you in this interview, if not before is like, originality matters to you.
Grant:
Absolutely.
Daniel:
So, asking questions that anybody else could ask isn't interesting. And when we've talked about formats for your show, I think that's the thing that is a challenge for you is, you don't want to do another person's format.
Grant:
Yeah.
Daniel:
You want to do something that's original. And it's hard to be original when time is going in a certain direction and things happen. Like there aren't that many iterations of, "Hey, so we went goofy. And then we went serious," versus like, "We went serious and then we went goofy." Right? That's just like ...
Grant:
Right. Right, yeah.
Daniel:
There's just a couple of different ways to do it.
Grant:
I mean, that's a good point. I guess, I didn't think of it, but yeah, I absolutely ... In everything I do, I try to be as original as possible because, especially being in the radio industry, it's an industry that isn't what it was because it's much smaller, and it's shriveled a lot.
Grant:
But, there has been a lot of copycat behavior, especially because things used to be so regional. So like, something that some guy would do on the radio in Chicago would be copied by some guy in Indianapolis and Des Moines, and Toledo, etc.
Grant:
And they didn't have any shame about it, because they'll just say, "I'm just trying to do a show, and I'll steal stuff, and I don't care." And I don't have that luxury because, I'm heard across North America. So, if I rip somebody off, people are going to know. But I don't have the desire to do that, I want to be as original as possible.
Grant:
So yeah, that informs everything I do, whether it's interviews, or just my daily broadcasting. And that's something that I want to apply to a podcast. And so, I won't launch a podcast until I have something that I'm extremely confident is original and different, and something that I can fully sign off on.
Daniel:
I look forward to it. So, parting thought. The Grant Random gem of wisdom around being an amazing interviewer, parting thought on that.
Grant:
A parting thought? Man, that's a lot of pressure.
Daniel:
I know it's a shit ... It's not a great question, as it turns out.
Grant:
Well, because I guess I would just reiterate what I said before. In that, in being a good interviewer, you need practice. I don't think that somebody who's super naturally gifted at conversation in ... I guess those people exists, probably, maybe?
Grant:
I wasn't one of those people. I needed to practice. The more practice I had at it, the more natural and comfortable, and I think for the listener, more enjoyable it was to listen too.
Grant:
And again, for me, a big part of that is actually listening deeply to what my guests are saying, and being able to ideally follow up what they're saying with questions based on that. That leads to just a richer, actual conversation. An actual conversation where it's actually back and forth, versus an interview where I'm just reading questions off a little piece of paper.
Daniel:
Yeah, deep listening. That's a really good place to end. I don't think there's a formula for that honestly.
Grant:
I think that it just requires being comfortable in the situation so that you're not distracted mentally that you can actually pay attention to what the person is saying. And again, for me, that took a lot of practice, because I was not that guy early in my career. I hope that most of your podcast listeners did not hear any of my earlier interviews, because they would be cringing and thinking, "Wow, this guy sucks."
Daniel:
They're all in the archive that we found in the back corner.
Grant:
Son of a bitch, no.
Daniel:
Well, Mr. Grant Random, I have to say it is really, really fun to interview you.
Grant:
Yeah, this is fun. I appreciate it.
Daniel:
I really appreciate you coming on. It's fun to be in the actual Cathedral of radio, that is SiriusXM.
Grant:
We're at the SiriusXM headquarters in New York City, by the way, for people who don't know. Midtown-ish. Times Square North, right a block down from 30 Rock.
Daniel:
So, we can just come visit you any time we want?
Grant:
Any time, just come on down.
Daniel:
Thanks again, man. I really, really appreciate it. This is awesome.
Grant:
My pleasure.