Mike Sagun is a certified professional men’s coach, and he has partnered with companies like DropBox, LinkedIn, and Google. Mike also partners with EVRYMAN, where he hosts men’s groups, facilitates men’s retreats, coaches individuals, and co-leads EVRYMAN’s diversity and inclusion program. I met Mike through the work we’ve done together in EVRYMAN’s programs, and I was delighted to have him on the show to get his perspective on facilitation, coaching, leading intimacy online...and just how important it is to create the space to connect with ourselves.
Doing deep, transformative work online is critically important...certainly in the pandemic, it’s essential to be able to keep connecting with people. And as we transition into a hybrid future, it’s important to remember how virtual connection has made so much of the world more accessible.
I always remember an NPR story from the start of the pandemic where a wheelchair bound individual was thrilled that they could finally go to church without all of the hassle of transportation. Worlds opened up for so many as well all went online. As hard as making space and time to connect online is, it’s worth doing and worth doing well.
Many facilitators and leaders still say that “in person was better” or “virtual will never be like in person” to which I say...yes, indeed. They are different animals. My conversation with Mike Sagun will help you see how deep online work can be, both in groups and one-on-one.
My own men’s group has struggled with the online transition, so I visited the Drop In Men’s Group Mike hosts each Friday to see how he does it.
I was excited to see that, in the first moments of the session, Mike formed clear and powerful boundaries for the group of 30 men, and did everything and more that I advise folks to do when they want to build a more powerful group connection. There’s nothing fancy to it. Like some of the best food experiences, it’s about good ingredients, treated with respect. My experience of Mike’s facilitative presence was just smooth, open and easy. His pace is not rushed. Some of the things I spotted him doing, which we’ll dig into in our conversation were:
0. Greet the people. Connect with them, ask for how to pronounce names.
1. Being Explicit about agreements. What is this space for? What isn’t it for?
2. Slow Down. Close whatever came before with a moment of mindfulness.
3. Passing the mike - giving power and control to others in the group to lead parts.
4. Breakout to connect. Smaller groups help create more safety and connection.
5. Assign “captains” of each breakout and give a clear, focused prompt.
6. Get people to share from that breakout.
7. In larger groups, give someone the time-awareness job so you can focus on connecting.
That last element was one of my favorite moments, of Mike setting clear and safe boundaries for presence and connection. Mike asked someone to put in the chat when someone’s share out had reached four minutes. He clarified “When it's four minutes, it doesn't mean your time is up. It just means that you've been talking for four minutes.”
I sometimes call this practice “giving people jobs so you can do yours” and Mike did an amazing job of it. Giving away jobs helps people feel responsible for the space, in control...and it frees up mental space for you to focus on the most impactful aspects of your presence.
Mike also broke down three levels of listening, which are a powerful key to mastering virtual presence.
Level One is where you are doing what some would call “cosmetic” listening. You're there with a person but you're already thinking about what you're going to say next.
Level Two listening is being deeply engaged in the person. As Mike says “We're listening to every single consonant of the word that they're saying and we are very fully tuned in to their story or what they're talking about. Level two listening is one of the most powerful gifts that you can offer for someone. Just being there for that person to use you as a sound(ing) board.”
Level Three listening expands to what's happening within ourselves internally and in the environment. I’ve heard some folks call this “global listening”. Here, Mike suggests that we might notice “what's happening in their body language and their micro facial expressions. Then also, what's happening in the environment... then also what's happening outside in the world. What's happening in the culture, what's happening in politics.”
This level of listening is tremendously powerful, to be able to hold the conversation with the other person, with ourselves and with the larger world, all at once.
As Mike says “Level three listening is one of the greatest gifts that we can offer someone but also what we can offer ourselves... especially when we're facilitating a space like this.”
So there you have it...the secrets to presence. As Mike said in the opening quote:
“holding that space, I think what's most important is first checking in with ourselves and noticing how you show up. How am I showing up into this space? Do I need to let go of anything in order for me to be completely present for the person in front of me?”
LINKS, QUOTES, NOTES AND RESOURCES
Minute 6
when we relearn how to listen to our bodies, we then give ourselves the opportunity to notice what it is that we need. I'm not just talking about the pillars of health. Not just talking about what we need to eat, that we need to hydrate, that we need to move our bodies, that we need to sleep, that we need social connection. It also means that we are relearning what our purpose is or we are discovering what our purpose is. We are discovering what it is for us to be intentional in our lives and be deliberate in our lives. Also, when we are in our bodies, it helps us connect with ourself, lower case s and upper case S. Also, connection to others, connection to people that we love or our colleagues and our peers or even men in our life. When we can drop into our bodies, it gives us more access to connect and to feel fulfilled and satisfied in our lives.
Minute 8
There comes a point and I think many men experience this but don't know how to quite articulate it. There comes a point where these conversations just become dull and they're not energizing anymore. All of a sudden, we are in this place with our best friends who we feel we are deeply connected to that the relationship is stagnant. We start to feel de-energized. We start to feel exhausted in the relationship.
When we can open ourselves up to connection which is vulnerability which is what we would say at Evryman, speaking the unspeakables or if we were to go deeper into this, maybe opening up our hearts a little more. Then, we can start to sense and literally feel in our bodies what it feels like to connect to another person.
Minute 11
I love that because our bodies are our vessels. It is what we drive 24/7 a day. We are in it all the time. Often, we separate ourselves from our body. We don't often allow ourselves to slow down and feel into our body. This is quite important especially if we are in this modern day and age where the word stress means productive.
Minute 12
If we aren't connected to our body and we're not listening to the signals and the symptoms of stress, then what we might be doing is saying, "Hey Mike, you are having this high heart rate, you have high blood pressure, and your body is shaking but you know what, keep going. Keep moving forward because this is what it means to be productive. This is what it means to be a man or this is what it means to be a responsible individual." That is just so nuts and gnarly because, I mean, if we look at data today and if we also know the research on chronic stress, chronic stress basically leads to low life expectancy.
Minute 35
When I used to lead the in classroom workshops with an organization in California, I always made it a point to say, "Hi" to every single student that was coming to my workshop and to make eye contact with them and to, if I had time, then to go deeper into a little bit of a conversation. It takes a lot of time to do that. It takes commitment to do that. It creates the safety in the room and if we're facilitating large groups, if more people feel safe, the deeper work you can do with the group.
Minute 41
When there's a time boundary like that, it doesn't mean to speed up your share. It actually means, "Let's go straight to the emotion. Let's go straight to it.
MORE ABOUT MIKE
Mike is a certified professional men’s coach. He has a BA in Education and spent 10 years as a teaching artist coaching young people. He trained with Challenge Day and with Lincoln Center Education in NYC. In 2017, Mike delivered a TEDx Talk about the significance for young people to have trusted adults in their lives.
Recognizing the impact and importance of deep emotional health propelled him into his coaching career. After graduating from Coaches Training Institute, Mike launched his coaching practice with the purpose of creating safe spaces for men to think deeply about themselves and to develop skills for living authentic lives.
Since then, Mike has partnered with companies like DropBox, LinkedIn, Google, Kaiser Permanente, and Saje Wellness. Mike also partners with EVRYMAN, where he hosts men’s groups, facilitates men’s retreats, coaches individuals, and co-leads EVRYMAN’s diversity and inclusion program.
When Mike isn’t coaching, hosting webinars, or developing ways to help men grow, you can find him with dirty hands, either planting succulents and cacti or in the kitchen cooking with his husband, Jerry. Mike, Jerry, and their pit-bull rescue, Bert, live in San Miguel de Allende, Mexico.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Daniel Stillman:
I'm going to officially welcome you to the Conversation Factory, Mike Sagun. Here we are, I'm grateful for this time.
Mike Sagun:
It goes both ways.
Daniel Stillman:
Thanks, man. I wanted to talk with you. I wanted to have you on the show to talk about men's work in virtual space probably for at least two reasons. One, I think, I mention men's work in my work and a lot of people are like, "What's that about?" Then, I want to make sure we talk about that. The other thing is I know that so many of the guys that we know in this work are ... It's challenging. Everyone's making this challenging transition into virtual space. I think men's work is such an interesting sub-species of virtual conversation. I think there's so much to unpack there.
Daniel Stillman:
I feel like the very, very first thing we need to do is talk about who's Mike Sagun and how'd you find your way into doing this work? That's a good place to start.
Mike Sagun:
Hello, everyone. If you really knew me, you'd know that I spent most of my life on the stage in theater. Yes, the charisma comes in naturally. My name is Mike Sagun. I am a men's coach. I'm a men's work facilitator. I facilitate for organizations like Evryman which that's how I know you ...
Daniel Stillman:
Yes.
Mike Sagun:
... is through Evryman. I am a proud, proud, proud gay man of color. Born and raised in the Bay Area in California, now live in San Miguel de Allende with my husband which is central Mexico three hours north of Mexico City. I focus my work with men or all people who identify as male. The foundation of my work is really a lot of what we practice at Evryman, Daniel, which is slowing the heck down and coming back into our bodies. As men, we naturally are up in our head. We love being up in our head. We're fixers, we're doers, we are problem-solvers. It is completely necessary because we are responsible people. We have families to take care of. We have to earn a living. We have responsibilities. We have friends, unity. Oftentimes, that leads us or that guides us to be in our head all day. What I do with the men that I work with is I teach them skills and tools to add to the tool belt to allow them spaces, intentional time in their day where they can slow down. Honestly, the work is simple. It is really simple.
Mike Sagun:
However, I think the difficulty is knowing when to do it and how to do it. How to get ourselves out of our head because sometimes even being in our bodies, we can lead ourselves back to our head with judgment, with story, with thoughts. The practice, just like my practice of meditation and any practice of meditation, is always about coming back. Coming back to presence. Coming back to this moment. Coming back to my body. What I do with the men I work with is I do that regularly, often, consistently. I bring guys back into their bodies. That's a little bit about me.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. Why do you think it's important for men to do this type of work?
Mike Sagun:
Well, I firmly believe that intellect and knowledge lives in our head and wisdom lives in our body. When we allow ourselves and I like saying when we relearn how to listen to our bodies because we ... Growing up, when we're babies, we come out of the womb reaching and feeling this world. This is how we develop our brain. We are literally screaming and crying and putting our hands on things. As we get older, we notice that we have a mouth. We want to put things in our mouth and we want to climb things. We want to use our bodies. We naturally do that. We, as babies, we naturally learn how to pick ourselves up. We naturally learn how to turn over. We naturally learn how to crawl. Then, find something to lift ourself up again. We naturally know how to feel into this body of ours. We naturally know what our bodies need.
Mike Sagun:
When we're babies, when we're hungry we cry and we get what we need. When we feel unsafe, we cry and scream and we make ourselves known so that we can get attention. As we develop language and we develop our prefrontal cortex and we develop the understanding of consequences and then also social dynamics, we then unlearn how to feel into our bodies. We have to because we go to school and we take tests and we have to learn and memorize. We have to do all of these things to be quote-unquote "successful" in our lives so that we can go to college or get an education or figure out what we want to do in our life and that actually traps us in our head. Often, when we are conditioned to think that way and live this way, we don't naturally know how to come back into our bodies.
Mike Sagun:
This is important because when we relearn how to listen to our bodies, we then give ourselves the opportunity to notice what it is that we need. I'm not just talking about the pillars of health. Not just talking about what we need to eat, that we need to hydrate, that we need to move our bodies, that we need to sleep, that we need social connection. It also means that we are relearning what our purpose is or we are discovering what our purpose is. We are discovering what it is for us to be intentional in our lives and be deliberate in our lives. Also, when we are in our bodies, it helps us connect with ourself, lower case s and upper case S. Also, connection to others, connection to people that we love or our colleagues and our peers or even men in our life. When we can drop into our bodies, it gives us more access to connect and to feel fulfilled and satisfied in our lives.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. It's funny because this is on my agenda for us to talk about presence. What it sounds like you're implying, and what I think I also believe, is that if we can't connect to ourselves, it's hard to connect to someone else.
Mike Sagun:
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I was this. This is me in my teens and 20s hanging out with my guy best friends. We would just [inaudible 00:07:28] and just hang out and talk about the most trivial things in our lives. Not saying that that isn't important because it can be very important because part of connection and part of friendships is belonging and part of belonging is shared interests and shared passions. My friends and I would sit around and just talk endlessly about basketball, endlessly about skateboarding or endlessly about the kinds of beers that we loved or the kinds of music that we liked listening to or dancing to. There comes a point and I think many men experience this but don't know how to quite articulate it. There comes a point where these conversations just become dull and they're not energizing anymore. All of a sudden, we are in this place with our best friends who we feel we are deeply connected to that the relationship is stagnant. We start to feel de-energized. We start to feel exhausted in the relationship.
Mike Sagun:
When we can open ourselves up to connection which is vulnerability which is what we would say at Evryman, speaking the unspeakables or if we were to go deeper into this, maybe opening up our hearts a little more. Then, we can start to sense and literally feel in our bodies what it feels like to connect to another person. I want to believe that many of us know what that feels like. Maybe it's like, I'm getting it right now, chills on my arms, chills on my neck. Maybe it's my heartbeat racing a little faster or maybe there's energy running up and down my spine that makes me feel so alive and good. These are sensations in our body that we don't normally pay attention to unless we're guided and directed to. These sensations in our body are lessons for us. There's so much information in what's happening in our physiology and the connection that it has with what's happening in our external world.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. I'll just say my opinion is, and there's plenty of other people who've said this, that certainly men in heterosexual relationships, there's this idea of emotional work that women do in a relationship with men. Then, men need to show up more in their work, in their relationships, in those ways. I think there's also in the workplace ... A good friend of mine share with me his principles of running a feminist business. She's in this study program to learn how to make her small business more feminist. The first principle of running a feminist business is you have a body. I was like, "Whoa." I was blown away by this because I think there's this idea that we can force ourselves to be a certain way. That we can show up infinitely. That we can squeeze out effort from ourselves instead of the reality that we have to sleep, we have to eat, we have to take care of ourselves and we're human beings. We have this beingness that we have to take care of.
Daniel Stillman:
I think maybe, and I don't know if you agree with this, that one of the reasons why it's important for men to do this work is so we can have a more balanced world. A lot of women talk about defeating the patriarchy from the outside. I think what we're talking about is resolving ourselves. I think men have internalized patriarchy as well and ways that we are supposed to be, we think we have to be versus, "Well, how are we right now? What do we want? What do we need? Let's be more human." It's real work.
Mike Sagun:
Yeah. I love that because our bodies are our vessels. It is what we drive 24/7 a day. We are in it all the time. Often, we separate ourselves from our body. We don't often allow ourselves to slow down and feel into our body. This is quite important especially if we are in this modern day and age where the word stress means productive.
Daniel Stillman:
I'm busy, man, I'm so busy these days.
Mike Sagun:
Right. It's like a badge of honor. It's like a badge of honor to be busy all the time, to work our butts off, and to not have any alone time.
Daniel Stillman:
Not to even be alone with yourself.
Mike Sagun:
Not to be alone with ourselves. Yeah. Absolutely. I think that is destructive, one, to our bodies and our mental health. Also, destructive to everything that we are in contact with, everything that we are in community with. Not only our families but our workplace and the things that we love. If we aren't connected to our body and we're not listening to the signals and the symptoms of stress, then what we might be doing is saying, "Hey Mike, you are having this high heart rate, you have high blood pressure, and your body is shaking but you know what, keep going. Keep moving forward because this is what it means to be productive. This is what it means to be a man or this is what it means to be a responsible individual." That is just so nuts and gnarly because, I mean, if we look at data today and if we also know the research on chronic stress, chronic stress basically leads to low life expectancy.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. Yeah. It does.
Mike Sagun:
Why aren't we doing more to take intentional time for ourselves throughout the day? I'm not saying go on a freaking awesome retreat and do 10 days of silence and fasting or going on a visioning quest and fasting by yourself. I'm not saying doing that but finding these opportunities in your day to take a deep breath and drop into your body and just notice the sensations we are feeling. Emotions come and go. They wash over us like waves crashing on the sea. How we feel in the morning might not be what we feel when we take our lunch. It may have shifted but often when we don't give ourselves the opportunity to drop into our bodies, that state ... If we woke up frustrated and stressed and we don't notice that we actually shifted it to a place of calm, we might actually be tricking ourselves into saying, "Actually, you're still stressed, Mike, so keep going. Eat your lunch stressed out and keep moving forward." It's like we have to have these opportunities to honor and cherish our bodies. I think women have the intuitive sense to do that.
Mike Sagun:
I think naturally we, as human beings ... I'm not going to say every single human being. I'm not going to say every single human being but I think most of us naturally know what it's like to be in connection another person. Know what it's like to feel love with another person.
Mike Sagun:
It just so happens that socially women ... It's more acceptable for women to have little cuddle puddles with their home girls and sit and talk and gossip and chill out with each other and open up about their feelings. We men have that natural instinct when we are kids. However, we have a brain that says, "Actually, Mike, don't do that because that's social suicide" and that all your friends are going to think that you are whatever derogatory term you want to throw out there. That shoots men down.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. Guys police each other very, very hard. I think that's true.
Mike Sagun:
Right. Right.
Daniel Stillman:
It's really interesting though because I think there's a difference between the casual emotional conversations that women can potentially get a lot more access to just because of cultural norms. I was actually coaching a female entrepreneur recently who ... I'll tell the story very briefly because I want you to share some wisdom from your own coaching. I think a coaching conversation is more intentional because it's my job to sit in presence with them and it's their job to be as present as they can and speak the truth. She was expressing that she would be grateful to get all the problems of her start-up if they were handed to her today. Somebody's like, "Here, we're hiring you as the CEO. Here are all these problems." She would be like, "Whoa. This is so exciting. Wow. Look at all these cool, fun problems to work on."
Daniel Stillman:
She then said that she and her co-founder, she's like, "I guess we kind of do have mild PTSD but we're just pushing through." I was like, "Wait a minute. I'm just going to repeat back what you just said to me. You have mild PTSD and you're pushing through." She was like, "You know, when you say it that way, I mean," and I'm like, "Oh, like exactly how you said it to me."
Daniel Stillman:
What would you say to a friend of yours who said, "I have mild PTSD but I am just going to knuckle through this?" She was like, "Yeah. I would say that we should" ... Because she was looking at the problems that she had and there's all this emotional baggage with them. She wasn't just like, "Okay, it's a problem. Let's go solve it." It's like, "Oh my God, I've created this problem and I hate myself. I can't believe I have to do this." Holding that intentional space for something is transformative for them to hear themselves. I think you do an amazing job of creating intentional safe space for people to peel back layers. I'm just wondering what do you think you are doing on purpose? What do you think you are doing? What are you doing internally to show up in that way for people?
Mike Sagun:
Yeah. In a space like this as a facilitator, in a healing space like this as a facilitator, I think what's most important is for me to notice what I'm feeling first, how I'm showing up in here.
Daniel Stillman:
How apropos, yeah.
Mike Sagun:
Coming into each ... Yeah, and just really checking in on myself and noticing what my nervous system is like and if I'm activated or not. Allowing myself to do my work with myself before coming into a space like an Evryman drop-in group or even in a coaching relationship. What I'm really saying is I'm listening. I think in the coaching world we talk about this often as a really valuable coaching skill, listening. Through my practice and through my training, there's three levels of listening.
Mike Sagun:
The first is level one listening which is not really listening. You're there with a person but you're already thinking about what you're going to say next which, I think, many of us can experience and we are very familiar with. Then, level two listening we're really engaged in the person. We're listening to every single consonant of the word that they're saying and every single ... We are very fully tuned in to their story or what they're talking about. That is a powerful skill is just to be there in space because I also feel like level two listening is one of the most powerful gifts that you can offer for someone. Just being there for that person to use you as a sound board.
Mike Sagun:
Then, there's level three listening which is level two listening but also listening to what's happening within ourselves internally but also what's happening in their body language and their micro facial expressions. Then also, what's happening in the environment that we are in both intimately like in our room or in our office and then also what's happening outside in the world. What's happening in the culture, what's happening in politics. Level three listening, I think, is one of the greatest gifts that we can offer someone but also what we can offer ourselves especially when we're facilitating a space like this. Just understanding where this person might be and what they might be going through. Not just internally but also externally in the world.
Mike Sagun:
Holding that space, I think what's most important is first checking in with ourselves and noticing how you show up. How am I showing up into this space? Do I need to let go of anything in order for me to be completely present for the person in front of me?
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. Then also, and maybe I'm projecting, I feel like I'm also ... This is sometimes called transference and countertransference where it shows up as intuition. Sometimes, what's showing up for you, your internal sensations are, "I think this person might need to know this. I might be two steps ahead of them and they need to get there on their own." That sometimes comes up. I don't know if those are internal dialogues you have with yourself as a coach.
Mike Sagun:
Oh my gosh. Absolutely. I mean, my intuition is ... I mean, I lean on that the most. I've been pushing for several years, and right now, my intuition is 90% to 95% right. That when I call something in my intuition and I see it and I put a voice to it, it resonates. However, there's a five to 10% chance that it's wrong and that's okay. That is okay because when our intuition is wrong and it gets called out for being wrong, the person that you're working with gets to figure out what the answer is for themselves. In many ways, it's a win-win but also if we get it wrong, then it also strengthens our intuition. It lets us know, "Oh great, okay, cool. That was wrong so let's honor that. Let's honor that that wasn't the right path but let's see what comes up next."
Mike Sagun:
I think for us as coaches, I think sometimes ... We all have an intuition. Every single person has an intuition and we would call it our sixth sense. It is right there in our belly. That's where the expression having that gut feeling comes from. Every single time that we have the opportunity to listen to that intuition and we take action based on that intuition, we are strengthening that intuition even if that intuition was wrong.
Mike Sagun:
If we were to think about our bodies, we have a mind that we use to get things done. Then, we have instinct which our body tells us, "Hey, Mike, you should probably eat some food right now" or "Hey, you should probably get some sleep right now" which is the oldest parts of our body. It is part of our reptilian brain. It's part of our nervous system.
Mike Sagun:
Then, we have a third part of our body which is our intuition. That intuition is wisdom. It is not a guess. It is based on evidence though. It is based on what we know. The deeper that we are, the deeper relationship that we have with our clients or the groups that we're working with, the stronger intuition is going to get in understanding and knowing what might be best for this person or what might be best for this group. I love listening to my intuition. It is so part of this work and especially so part of the work that we do with men because sometimes I could listen to my intuition and I'll say something so freaking random and the guy is like, "Oh, whoa. Yes, that totally lands with me. That totally feels right."
Daniel Stillman:
I always like to joke, if you don't listen to your intuition, then you might just pack up and go someplace where it's a little more wanted. I mean, I just feel like I'm in a passive-aggressive relationship with my ... My intuition's like, "Well, I'm clearly not needed here so okay, I'll go visit Mike more often because he listens to me." It's interesting because what you're describing, coaching and facilitation don't sound very different to me in practice because and maybe I'm just looking through my conversation designed cybernetics lens where there's this feedback loop of sensing and responding and stepping forward and stepping back and leaning in and leaning back and pushing and pulling, asking and waiting in space. There's a feel to the thing. I don't know if that was a question.
Mike Sagun:
Say more about that.
Daniel Stillman:
Well, I'm just wondering where do you feel the differences? I mean, obviously, as a coach, it's a one-on-one conversation. As a facilitator, you're holding space for, I mean, what was it? The drop-in group. It was almost 30 guys. It's a different type of presence or is it?
Mike Sagun:
Yeah.
Daniel Stillman:
I don't know. What's different for you about the way you show up for these two-
Mike Sagun:
Yeah. I love ...
Daniel Stillman:
... different conversations?
Mike Sagun:
I see that. Okay. I love that question. Yeah. In group, I'm also monitoring other guys. I'm looking at their reactions and what their body movements are. I'm noticing how they're being impacted by what's being shared. I'm noticing if they're distracted or if they feel completely engaged in the conversation. With one-on-one, I'm paying attention to everything that's happening with just them and also what's happening maybe in their background or where they are in their environment. There is a slight difference in skill because I think with facilitation there's a little bit more of multitasking listening. You got to listen to 30 plus guys that are on this call with you while simultaneously listening to the guy who's sharing whereas in a one-on-one setting, there's less multitasking. Not to say that the work is more powerful with the one-on-one coaching. There just needs to be a little bit more skill in the facilitators and to manage and to feel into what's happening in these spaces.
Daniel Stillman:
I want to get down to that a little bit because I was taking notes during the drop-in group and just to give people some context because I feel like ... Could you maybe draw the arc of how a regular men's group that you and I would be in differs from the arc of how the drop-in group agenda kind of works?
Mike Sagun:
Yeah. I think when we talk about men's group, I think many of us are very familiar with ... We all meet in person which we're not doing today. It is the same six to eight guys that come every single week to group. What's beautiful about that dynamic is as the group matures and as it gets older, we get to know each other on a deeper level and more and deeper work can happen because of that. In a drop-in group, there is not commitment level. This is an offering that we put out with every man where if you want to taste the sport, if you want to dip your toe in and see the work that we do and kind of see what can happen in your life if you just gave yourself and took a risk to step in a group, this is what can happen. It's an opportunity for guys to see other guys do their work or even participate themselves and share.
Mike Sagun:
What's different is that guys don't have to commit to it. If they decide that they want to come one Friday and then all of a sudden, they're like, "You know what? This work is not for me. I don't think I'm going to come back again" or "I think I need to take a break from it," they can take that break. There's no commitment level. There's no agreement that says, "Oh, I need to tell Mike that this is not for me" or "I need to tell the group that I'm commitment for six months." There's none of that whereas in an in-person group, there's some very clear agreements that we have. Some groups that I've facilitated and that I've started, our agreement is, "Come to one group. If it feels good, commit to one month and see what happens. Then, we'll revisit."
Mike Sagun:
If it doesn't resonate with you in the first group, awesome. Here are other resources. Here's another men's group if this is of any interest to you. If not, okay, well, if it ever calls to you again, come back. In the drop-in group, what's different is we get guys from all over the world. It's not just your local community of men. These are guys that are staying up late in Israel or in the Philippines. Staying up until 9:00 p.m., 2:00 a.m., sometimes in the Philippines to be in this group with us. On some level because I have regulars that come to this group, there is a commitment for them.
Daniel Stillman:
I felt that.
Mike Sagun:
It isn't like in their-
Daniel Stillman:
I felt that. It felt like a lot more cohesive than I expected honestly.
Mike Sagun:
Yeah. Yeah. I get like 20 to 30 regulars every week that show up every single Friday. There is a group dynamic that happens when there are 20 to 30 guys that understand this work and that are willing to open up.
Daniel Stillman:
Yet, you are still really explicit about some fundamental agreements because that was one of the things, bullet point one I had was you slowed us down. You really got clear on the agreements. Then, I noticed you did something and I don't know if you did this because your Internet was giving you trouble but you passed the mike. I think this is such a powerful thing to do as a facilitator is to step back. You let another guy in the group ... You're like, "Is anybody called to ...
Mike Sagun:
Lead a meditation.
Daniel Stillman:
... lead a meditation?" I was like, "What a cool thing." I mean, we do that in my men's group. We rotate that job. I thought that was so cool that you just gave that job away in the group.
Mike Sagun:
Yeah. Thanks, Dan. In my years of facilitating groups and workshops and classes, what I find most powerful and most valuable for people is when they can feel like they own a part of it.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Mike Sagun:
They can be a part of it and they can also be a leader or a captain in it. Every group I allow guys to step into that leadership. For some guys, it's risky. It's like their opportunity to share their craft. Sometimes, they're not as skilled as a meditator or they're not as skilled as a leader but it's okay because they took a risk and that's what this work is about. This work is about taking this risk in a safe environment so you can see what it feels like to be in discomfort but also be in safety at the same time. I always offer guys to lead the meditation because it does give them a sense of ownership. Then, you might have noticed that also when I break guys out of the small groups for the first time check in, I also assign captains. I assign guys who have been in our drop-in group or who are part of an Evryman group to lead. This also gives them another sense of ownership and leadership in the space.
Daniel Stillman:
I think it's really interesting at this point almost a year into this remote world that a wide [crosstalk 00:32:15]-
Mike Sagun:
Oh my gosh, yes.
Daniel Stillman:
... for people to commit to, I think of many people who have [inaudible 00:32:19] on to the importance of the breakout. I also know that, for me personally, the more closely scoped the breakout question prompt is, the safer I feel. I was visiting someone else's session and there was sort of like an, "Oh, just tell people where you're from" and I don't even know what else it was and just my chest just gripped with fear of like, "Oh, I'm going to be in this room of random people" and in a way knowing that someone is in charge and that the 30-second check in that the men's work that we're in recommends you start with is so crisp and clear. It's very low BS. To me, that's very ... Then, we wound up with lots of time. Then, someone was like, "Oh, where's everyone from?" Then, we got into that conversation and it's fine because we had built that safe foundation which is ...
Mike Sagun:
Right. Right. How can we offer safety? We offer safety by setting people up with success. That means a little bit of hand holding. It's not just like, "Oh, we're doing some small groups in breakout rooms. We're just going to throw all of you in there and let's just see what happens because I think we all know by now," I'm making all these generalizations, "Many of us know what it's like to be in a small group" and it's just awkward silence.
Daniel Stillman:
Yes.
Mike Sagun:
There's no direction and there's no leadership. It's like, "Well, what do we do?" That activates us. That activates our nervous system and all of a sudden we're in a fight or flight and we're like, "Oh God, got to fill the space. I got to fill the space and we men like filling space especially in silent, especially with groups. We like filling the space with words." It's part of, how can we feel the most safe in this? If we feel the most safe in an environment, then we are open and we are open to receiving. That's where a lot of the deep work happens is if we come into a space and feel safe.
Daniel Stillman:
It seems like there's two things I'm hearing, and I agree with both of them, is distributing authority can actually make people feel more in control and more safe. Also, starting with a small amount of intimacy can provide a foundation for deep intimacy.
Mike Sagun:
Yeah. When I used to lead the in classroom workshops with an organization in California, I always made it a point to say, "Hi" to every single student that was coming to my workshop and to make eye contact with them and to, if I had time, then to go deeper into a little bit of a conversation. It takes a lot of time to do that. It takes commitment to do that. It creates the safety in the room and if we're facilitating large groups, if more people feel safe, the deeper work you can do with the group. Even engaging in a little bit of intimacy of asking, "How are you doing" or "Hey, what's your name" or even saying, "Hey, how do I pronounce your name," that's one of my favorites is there's a name that I don't know how to pronounce and I'm like, "How do I say your name? Did I say your name right?" That immediately brings them into, "Oh my gosh, this guy cares."
Daniel Stillman:
Yes.
Mike Sagun:
This guy understands I have a name that might be difficult to the American vernacular and so he might have trouble hearing my name. Asking them simple questions like that can help them open up into the space. My philosophy around facilitation has always been slow and simple. How can we make it slow and simple because if we're hand holding which we do a lot in facilitation is holding hands and guiding people, how can we make this accessible for them? It's accessible when we make things simple.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Mike Sagun:
Yeah.
Daniel Stillman:
I want to highlight something else I saw you do which I thought was brilliant. This is something that I used to do in in-person workshops is you gave away what I call the time friend when people want to do a longer check in. After we had done the breakout sessions, somebody had something deeper that they wanted to check in on. You asked if somebody would volunteer to be the timekeeper and to let us know when ... You have four minutes and when there's one minute left, just drop that in the chat. Here's what blew me away. I loved this phrase. When it's four minutes, it doesn't mean your time is up. It just means that you've been talking for four minutes. I almost died because you talk about slow and simple but you said it so clear. It's important because you want to have multiple guys share what they're working on. You were almost doing a mini little journey with each one. If there was more there, you could pull more out of them. You had asked them to slow down and you were doing a little coaching session.
Daniel Stillman:
There was that guy in the room who was your friend who was just looking out for you who said, "Hey, it's four minutes." He would see it too. Everybody would see it. Everybody knows it's been four minutes and that's okay. That just means it's been four minutes. Such a precise way of saying, "Tell me a little bit about your relationship to time when you're in this kind of a group setting." Mike, I'm going to make sure I didn't lose you or I just asked too deep a question. Oops. Let's see. It looks like I might have lost him. Mike.
Mike Sagun:
Okay. Hey, I'm back.
Daniel Stillman:
Hey, welcome back. When did we lose you?
Mike Sagun:
I apologize for that.
Daniel Stillman:
No, it's totally fine. I was like, "Did I ask too deep of a question?" You just really paused super long and I was like, I gave it some silence and then I was like, "Let's just check that he's still here" and there's one participant.
Mike Sagun:
I lost you at, I think you were getting into the time and setting the time around shares.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. Well, you set up this very clear agreement. You set up the very clear arc. You gave away the time friending, the time boxing role to someone. You said to the guy who's sharing, "When you get that one-minute warning, you'll see it in the chat, it's there." Someone else is doing that for you, you're liberated. You can coach that guy. Then, you said when you see that the four minutes is up, it doesn't mean that your time is up, it just means that you've been speaking for four minutes. There was some, I don't know, man, grace in the way you said it. It's a very generous, very spacious relationship to time. I felt liberated in that moment. The question was like, what's Mike's relationship to time in that context?
Mike Sagun:
Beautiful. Boundaries. We have to create the space and when we create the space, we have to set the boundaries. These are the boundaries. There happens to be a time boundary here. When there's a time boundary like that, it doesn't mean to speed up your share. It actually means, "Let's go straight to the emotion. Let's go straight to it." It takes away time for one, as a facilitator, I know that, "Okay. Cool. If this guys gets into story, if he gets into things that aren't relevant, then I know that he has two or three minutes left and I need to bring him back so that some deep work can happen in this four-minute timeframe." It helps me as a facilitator one, just be laser sharp around the facilitation. It also gives them an opportunity to know that, "Okay. Cool. I have four minutes. This is my boundary. I know that I need to go right to it. If I volunteer to come up and speak now, it's my time and it's my opportunity to share what I need to share in order for me to feel different."
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. It's a firm boundary but it's also a soft boundary because it's funny, I'm thinking the guy whose timing the share doesn't have am, "Okay, let us know when it's another four minutes." After that four minutes, you're aware. You and everyone else, the guy sharing is ... Because [inaudible 00:42:14] has seen that in the chat. This guy could be crying. He's going through a real moment. When you're talking about presence and holding that safe space that, to me, is that once you're over that initial boundary, that's a challenging space I Feel.
Mike Sagun:
Well, I also say and this is going back to the intuition, if the energy is there, we'll keep it going. If it takes eight minutes and it takes 12 minutes and if it takes us to the end of this call, we'll keep it there if the energy is there. I've been doing this for a while and I can tell if a guy is coming to a place of completion or if a guy is, "I need more work." Also, if a guy is, "I just need to talk and I need to let this out." There have been times because this isn't talk therapy because this isn't group coaching and because we have these firm boundaries and we have an agreement to help, we want more guys to come. Sometimes, we'll have to say, "Hey man, it's been five, six minutes, is there anything that you needed to say to feel complete right now?"
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. That's a great prompt.
Mike Sagun:
I'm using everything in my tool belt to get him to a place of emotional connection. Sometimes, they're not ready for that. They're not there yet and that's okay. It's my responsibility as the facilitator to then start to wrap that up so that we can get more voices in here.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. That incompletion is also okay when it's hard to fully quote-unquote "tie it off" in the perfect bow.
Mike Sagun:
Yeah. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, we always say in the work that we do in our men's groups is, "We're not here to fix you. We're not here to solve your problems. That's not what we're doing. This work might be therapeutic. It might be therapeutic but it's not therapy or coaching. This is a space for you to share what's on your heart and get down to the emotion. What are you feeling in your body?"
Daniel Stillman:
For that, I think it's a very special and clear boundary that's being drawn out. What type of thing, what type of conversation, what type of transformation can happen in this space and time we have. Honestly, for an hour it's pretty amazing because ... I'll just say this from my men's group. When we met in person, we met from 7:00 to 9:30 or 10:00. I think we got a lot for free for being in person. Being remotely, we had to strip it down. We had to go shorter. We had to be crisper just because people were tired. Then, I think, it gets a little more mechanical. I think it's definitely a balance to be ... I think I was definitely guilty of keeping us on time but then maybe not getting to as much depth.
Mike Sagun:
So many of us are ... We're on Zoom all the time. We're on our devices all the time. There is a threshold of where we don't want to be on our screens anymore where we are more distracted being on our screens. These time limits and being very clear about how much time we're spending on the screen is important but it's also respectful. I always let the guys know, "I'm going to get you out of here at the hour because I know you guys have responsibilities and you're showing up for this hour. The expectation is you're here for the hour. This is the service. You're here for the hour and your expectation is that you're going to be out of here at the hour."
Daniel Stillman:
Well, I mean, that's a perfect prompt because our time is also running short. I mean, what haven't we talked about, Mike, do you think that's important? We've talked a little bit about men's work in the virtual space. We talked a little bit about holding safety and presence. What hasn't been said that should be said? What's left unsaid?
Mike Sagun:
Great men's work question.
Daniel Stillman:
I mean, it's how I actually end almost every interview because I think it's one of my favorite questions because I know there's no way we can tap into all the wisdom you have in this time. Before we leave, we'll make sure that you tell us where to find things Mike Sagun. For right now, what else can you leave us with in terms of leading in this virtual space?
Mike Sagun:
I just had to take a deep breath there.
Daniel Stillman:
Okay. Actually, can I just because that's the one post that we did not talk about. I saw you do, and I learned this from another facilitator as well, getting the group to take a team breath. You did this three times just to ... You reset the room over and over again. You're like, "You know what? That was elevating." You didn't even say that. You'd just be like, "Let's just everyone take a deep breath." We just all just went down from the red zone into the yellow and back into the green.
Mike Sagun:
Yeah. Yeah.
Daniel Stillman:
I love to see you do that.
Mike Sagun:
Yeah. I mean, that work ... Can you still hear me?
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. Yeah.
Mike Sagun:
Can you still hear me?
Daniel Stillman:
Absolutely. Yeah. You're here. Check. Check.
Mike Sagun:
The body of work that I focus on is emotional awareness and slowing down into the body. Emotions come and go like I said earlier. One moment you can be feeling excited. You can be feeling elated. You can have all of these emotions as elevated emotions. Then, all of a sudden, something might happen in your environment either externally or internally. All of a sudden, you are in someplace completely different. This is normal. This happens all day long. We don't often pay attention to it. In a group setting especially in the work that we do because there is so much feeling, there's so much emotion that is being shared, we as this observer or we witnessing a person also shift in our being. If we don't honor this shift in our being, then we don't notice the different shifts that are happening in our body. Then, we don't honor ourselves for doing that. It's like when we take that deep breath, it's an up [inaudible 00:49:24] just notice what's different now. What feels different now?
Mike Sagun:
I came into this call feeling anxious and nervous. Now, I feel calm and connected. That's something to honor, to highlight or I came in calm and now I'm feeling anxious and angry. That's also something beautiful to honor. This comes down to the nuance of emotions and also emotional embodiment and emotional granularity coming down to noticing where in your body you feel something different. These are the steps to just becoming more emotionally aware so that we can be more emotionally intelligent in our life.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. Really this comes down to what I'm hearing you say in terms of presence. I think it's so powerful just to say what is happening, to speak that [crosstalk 00:50:17] to say, "I'm feeling that tension. Let's all take a deep breath. Let's get back to our center" and everyone goes, "Yes, I want to do that."
Mike Sagun:
Right. Also, as a facilitator and bringing back intuition again, if I'm feeling something in my body, someone else is probably feeling something similar in their body. If I'm feeling tension and tightness in my body, someone else might be feeling that tension and tightness in their body too. I'm listening to [inaudible 00:50:54] and then I'm putting a voice to it. I'm just sharing it so that other guys have permission to connect with those sensations too.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. That's leading from your core so everyone else can show up as well. That's amazing.
Mike Sagun:
Right.
Daniel Stillman:
Mike, I know that our time is drawing to a close. Where should people go on the Internet to learn more about your work and to connect with your work?
Mike Sagun:
Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Daniel. I spend a lot of time on Instagram so you can find me there. That is Mike.Sagun, M-I-K-E-.-S-A-G-U-N. Of course, the Clubhouse phenomenon is going on. It is a great platform but also I laugh because it's just another social media piece to tackle. You can find me there at the same handle.
Daniel Stillman:
Okay. Good to know. I haven't yet beasted that beast. I'm holding the beast at a distance right now.
Mike Sagun:
I am too. It's still at a distance for me but I also find it really valuable and interesting to hear other people's perspective in real time. Yeah. You can find me there. You could also find me on my website at MikeSagun.com, so M-I-K-E-S-A-G-U-N.com.
Daniel Stillman:
Mike, I'm so grateful for the time. You're awesome. This is really important work and I hope that people will take what was in this conversation and bring it into their virtual gatherings which are pretty much the only type of gatherings that they should be having for some time.
Mike Sagun:
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Thank you. Thank you, Daniel, for this opportunity. This was so much fun. Really, really wonderful conversation and thanks for letting me follow. You're a great leader.