Tomomi Sasaki and I sat down to talk in-depth about her journey of self-awareness and inner work as a facilitator.
We met at an advanced facilitation masterclass I ran for Google at their Sprint Conference, way back in 2018. She tweeted at the end of 2020:
I've been facilitating workshops for about a decade. The first few years were ferocious, needs-based learning. Workshops took a tremendous amount of energy to plan and run, and after each one, I'd faceplant onto the nearest sofa.
Once things became manageable, I plateaued. I worked on plenty of facilitation assignments (and did a bunch of public speaking about lessons learned) but I was coasting and I knew it.
Then @kaihaley and the @GoogleDesign Sprint Conference gave me the gift of a full day training from @dastillman, and I started to think of facilitation as a practice. (you can listen to my conversation with Kai Haley here.)
Building a practice sends a different kind of signal into the universe. This gives me watershed experiences that blows apart a door I didn't know was there. Behind each door is a whole new landscape to explore, and new friends to explore it with.
It happens consistently, once or twice a year. I don't know what's behind that cadence but it is an amazing thing. You *think* you know the edges of the land and then... ah hah! It gets me every time.
It had been a while since we’d connected, but when I read that twitter thread, I knew we had to sit down to talk about her journey to thinking about facilitation as a practice and what that meant.
Tomomi is a designer and partner at the independent design studio AQ, and a frequent collaborator of Enterprise Design Associates. She's also a top-notch facilitator and, as you might have learned by now, a very reflective practitioner, and in this episode, she gives some invaluable advice about how to improve at the skill of facilitation - beyond tips and tricks.
I loved it when Tomomi said that “The insight for me was that I need to take care of who I am and what I'm bringing into the room as a facilitator because that's part of what's going to happen in the dynamics.”
Tomomi is essentially saying in her own words what Bill O'Brien, the late CEO of Hanover Insurance said, that “The success of an intervention depends on the interior condition of the intervener.”
When we facilitate, when we lead a group, we are noticing the system...and what we choose to respond to, focus on or call out will shift what happens in the system. The question here is...how do you affect change in a complex system...that YOU are part of?
Many people treat learning and change like a purely technical challenge: They have a deficit in performance and the assumption is that they can learn better ways of doing and apply them.
Similarly, we think we can apply a pattern or tool (like a facilitated workshop agenda, exercise or the like) and get a reliable result - like a baking recipe. But any bread baker will tell you that the weather, the flour and your mood can shift how things go. Dough is alive.
There are two challenges with this mechanical, recipe, way of thinking...one is that people and systems of people are complex...so, the likelihood of things going exactly according to plan without any need for adaptation and improvisation is...unlikely. People, like dough, are alive.
The other issue is that many people think it’s new and better ways of doing that are needed...where it’s actually different ways of thinking, different mental models and assumptions...which will naturally lead to different ways of doing.
Some folks (Chris Argyris and Donald Schön) describe this as the difference between single-loop and double-loop learning and others even point to triple and even quadruple loop learning...the core of which could be self-awareness, or seeing how we ourselves can affect the system. This is the transition from facilitation and leadership as “doing to” or performance to “doing with” and presence.
The way you show up internally will change what happens in the session.
https://organizationallearning9.wordpress.com/single-and-double-loop-learning/
As Tomomi says later in our conversation,
“I think what struck me was that in facilitation, we think so much about the participants, and the first question you basically asked in the master class was who are you? Until that moment, I hadn't really thought about that, and I think that's why I was getting so burnt out. You give and give without really an awareness of what you're doing to yourself or what you need to be. Then the realization is that, oh, that's where your strength comes from, it's where the practice needs to be built on, because you can't change that much, right?...So, might as well work with what you have. “
I care deeply about this idea. I think that facilitation and leadership more generally, is about expanding your range of capabilities - your ability to show up, on purpose, as the occasion calls for it. Tomomi suggests we can’t change *that much...but we can try to grow. I have a free course on Exploring and Expanding your roles as a facilitator, which you can find here.
There is so much goodness in Tomomi’s reflections. I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did.
LINKS, KEY QUOTES, NOTES AND RESOURCES
On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tomomisasaki/
On Twitter: @tomomiq
Minute 18
I think that it starts with recognizing that, well, to create space for yourself in the way you facilitate and think about facilitation. The insight for me was that I need to take care of who I am and what I'm bringing into the room as a facilitator because that's part of what's going to happen in the dynamics. So, first, that recognition, and then the understanding that feeling grounded in what we're doing and who we are in that moment was this foundation that we could build upon.
Minute 19
I think once that grounding is there, we're more self-aware of what we're reacting to, and that is what allows us to regulate and recognize if we're just emotionally reacting to something that's happening in the room. Is that something we want to use or is it something that we should let go? Having that, being able to look at yourself in that moment and then what's happening in the room is this level of awareness that I definitely didn't have in the beginning.
Minute 24
One thing about having a practice is that it allows us to actively seek out peers and people to practice with. For something like facilitation, which is always done with other people, doesn't really make sense to just be in your little corner and read about facilitation. Right? You have to go out and really grapple with that liveness. So, maybe even more than other disciplines. For something like facilitation, it's always in the relationship with who you're doing it with.
Minute 27
So, as a co-facilitator, you know how the whole thing is designed and you get a sense of that person. Then when you step into that facilitator role, you start to sense what they're doing deliberately or not, and then how the energy in the room is changing or the conversation is changing. So, I think that gives you this perspective on what power is there and what's being deployed and what the reaction is. So, there's definitely a lot of observation in real-time.
Then the gift of having a co-facilitator, especially one where there's a mutual recognition that we want to grow and be better and help each other, is there's so much debriefing and exchange that just happens naturally. Maybe it's the two minutes while you go grab a coffee, it's lunch during the workshop, and maybe it's the one hour beer that you have afterwards. But all of these conversations, they're like tiny, tiny feedback loops that you can only get from somebody, a fellow practitioner that just experienced the same thing. So, this is invaluable, I think, to get that explicit feedback loop with each other.
Minute 32
So, recently, I've been thinking of facilitation as a capability and equating it to things like writing and presenting, which we all do, even if we're not writers or presenters. We know we need to do these things, regardless of our role or where we are in our experience.
I think in our heads, we know that if we invested in these skills, it would really help with everything else. If I were a better writer, I can write crisper email and more pointy Slack messages, sharper reports, and all these things.
Minute 44
I think what struck me was that in facilitation, we think so much about the participants, and the first question you basically asked in the master class was who are you? Until that moment, I hadn't really thought about that, and I think that's why I was getting so burnt out. You give and give without really an awareness of what you're doing to yourself or what you need to be. Then the realization is that, oh, that's where your strength comes from, it's where the practice needs to be built on, because can't change that much, right?...So, might as well work with what you have. So, yeah. I'm so grateful for you having triggered that realization.
MORE ABOUT TOMOMI
My name is Tomomi Sasaki. I'm a designer and partner at the independent design studio AQ, running projects that deliver useful digital services through a combination of expert project management skills with a decade of practicing UX design and research. Past cases include tools that empower people to train for marathons (ASICS), gain skills in digital marketing (Google) and manage HR data (huubHR).
I am a frequent collaborator of Enterprise Design Associates, bringing product strategy, design research and facilitation skills to challenges like organizational culture change (Toyota Motor Europe), innovation in the employee experience (AccorHotels) and building the digital workplace (Deutsche Telekom).
Based in Paris since late 2014, I'm often on the road and spend a few weeks in Tokyo every six months.
Background
From Apr 2009 to Mar 2012, I was Japanese Language Editor for the citizen media initiative Global Voices Online, writing to shed insight on cultural and social issues from the Japanese blogosphere.
I have a background in multi-database research, professional Japanese/English translation skills, and used to be an editor for Japan’s largest art and design information site, Tokyo Art Beat. I currently sit on the Board of Directors for its parent organization, Gadago NPO.
I was born in Japan, spent my childhood in sunny California, and lived in Tokyo for almost two decades.
My name means 'beautiful friend' :)
Full Transcript
Daniel Stillman:
Okay. Well, I will officially welcome you to The Conversation Factory, Tomomi Sasaki. Thank you so much for making the time for this conversation.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Thank you so much for having me, Daniel.
Daniel Stillman:
So, I want to unpack with you your journey as a facilitator, maybe what your inciting event was when you got the call to the adventure, when you started down this road. When does your story start?
Tomomi Sasaki:
I had a very formative experience as a workshop participant after a few years of work, and it was the first time that I had participated in a one week, we were not calling it design sprints, but a lot of the ideas were embedded in that workshop where couple of different companies had come together to envision this big digital service that we were going to design together. I was the project manager of the design team and fairly low on the totem pole within everybody that was around the group, around the table.
Tomomi Sasaki:
It was such an amazing experience for me to see how a group could, once there was a process and principles in place, how we could work together and work on how we work together and also on the idea. So, that was the first time I'd really experienced that in a professional setting, and I felt so welcome and valued in that environment where I didn't go into it thinking I had a lot to contribute. I was really just there to understand what was going on and maybe take some notes.
Tomomi Sasaki:
So, that lived experience of being liberated and being myself in that experience, and also just being able to provide more value and enjoying it was something that I thought, oh, this facilitator skill is something I would really like to learn and be able to design that environment. So, that just got me on this journey of trying to do it myself and just, yeah, trying and failing and spending a lot of time trying to figure out what worked and what didn't.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Along the way, I realized that a lot of what I had learned in high school, being involved in theater, and I was not onstage. I really liked being in the audience with the lights. I was a person trying the spotlight and seeing how little differences in the way the stage was set up would just change drastically the way the experience was for the audience. So, I did not go into theater, but I still have a love for it, and I think in a way, I see the workshop room as my version of a stage, that we're here to produce together.
Daniel Stillman:
It's so interesting. There's so much to unpack there, this foundational moment of being seen and heard and valued, and then wanting to give that to other people. I feel like there's a very ... It's a very beautiful internal move. I feel like facilitators do value this idea of inclusion, and it's great. What I love is that you found a metaphor that works for you to make the process coherent. Some people couldn't see it as putting on a party, if they're party planners, and putting on a show with the front of house and the back of house is a really, really powerful analogy.
Daniel Stillman:
So, for me, the inciting incident for this conversation was this Twitter thread you put on, and I really identified with this. I'm going to quote you directly. "The first few years were ferocious needs-based learning. Workshops took a tremendous amount of energy to plan and run, and after each one, I had to face plant into the nearest sofa." That was a decade of that feeling, or maybe slightly less than a decade.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Yeah, a little bit less. I'm not a super social person. I'm not the one to grab the mic and start talking. I believe so much in the power of good facilitation. I didn't know what really worked for me, and so I was emulating what I'd seen. I think that just took so much energy out of me. It's super intense. There's no breaks, in a way, especially if you don't know how to regulate yourself, which I don't think we do know how in the first couple of years, and without maybe like a co-facilitator, someone more experienced to help pace things. So, it always felt like you spend 200% of yourself, all of your energy, and then once it's done, it was like-
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. It's interesting.
Tomomi Sasaki:
... just flat out-
Daniel Stillman:
In a way, you as an introverted, or an extroverted introvert or an introverted extroverted. I don't know. Which do you self-identify as? Because you're definitely somewhere in the middle. My theory is that pure extroverts are psychopaths and pure introverts are just ... I don't know. I don't think they even exist. So, everyone's in the middle and has many capacities. But it sounds like you value being seen, and I would just presuppose that in a way, there's a part of you that enjoyed somebody pulling you out and bringing you out and seeing you. As an introvert, it feels good to get pulled in to the conversation, to be invited in and just have someone take your hand and say, "We want you here."
Tomomi Sasaki:
Absolutely. Yeah, and that we all have different needs in having that done to us and having the skills and that flexibility and range to be able to do that is something I strive to do as a facilitator.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. It's just so interesting to me because it's like you're paying it forward, but at a cost to yourself.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Oh. Yeah. Yeah, just burning out, mini-burnout with each workshop. But I see, and especially because I'm Japanese and I'm female, and now I've come to understand, and that's not something I understand in the beginning, is that the skill of facilitation is a radical way to have a relationship with power, and I'm coming from a cultural backdrop where maybe I'm not expected to speak so much or be loud. I think there's a big part of that, of, well, but if there are ways to structure and design and nudge the environment for people to feel like they could do it, and also that actually, that's what we all want to be doing, then isn't that great, without being the boss or the person with official power.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Then I think after a decade of practicing, I've come to understand that this is something that all of us could be doing, even if it's not in the context of a workshop.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. Well, yeah.
Tomomi Sasaki:
So-
Daniel Stillman:
No, please. Please go on. There's more there. I know.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Oh, I was going to refer to your work and your language to describe conversation and our language as material that can be designed, and I really subscribe to this line of thinking.
Daniel Stillman:
Thank you. Power as an element to play with is really, I think ... There's a whole chapter about it in my book, because I think there's this idea of a normal power differential where people expect, as they sometimes do, to be told what to do or they want to push back against that. Facilitation does play with that power dynamic. I think there's also something in what you're saying about, at least, this is my own perspective, doing all the individual pulling out of people vs. setting up a structure that allows power to be flattened and allows people to step forward is a less exhausting way of holding space.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Yes. Yes, absolutely. Well, first of all, everyone should read your book. So, shout out there. But yes. Yes, exactly. I think that was something that shifted in my practice a few years in and why I'm not ... Well, it's still very intense, but then I'm not having these flat out moments anymore because I learned to let go of things and also embed a lot of it in the structure so that it's not always coming from something that I need to do in that moment. Yeah. This is really fascinating to me.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. This is doing to vs. doing with, and I think that's a huge shift. You used a phrase, and I really want to unpack this, back a few beats about regulating yourself. I don't think many people would normally think about regulating yourself as a powerful leadership skill or facilitation skill. What do you mean when you say regulating yourself and how do you regulate yourself?
Tomomi Sasaki:
I think that it starts with recognizing that, well, to create space for yourself in the way you facilitate and think about facilitation. The insight for me was that I need to take care of who I am and what I'm bringing into the room as a facilitator because that's part of what's going to happen in the dynamics. So, first, that recognition, and then the understanding that feeling grounded in what we're doing and who we are in that moment was this foundation that we could build upon.
Tomomi Sasaki:
I think once that grounding is there, we're more self-aware of what we're reacting to, and that is what allows us to regulate and recognize if we're just emotionally reacting to something that's happening in the room. Is that something we want to use or is it something that we should let go? Having that, being able to look at yourself in that moment and then what's happening in the room is this level of awareness that I definitely didn't have in the beginning.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. So, in a way, you are checking in with yourself. I'll just say, what I'm hearing you say is you can't regulate yourself unless you are noticing what you are experiencing-
Tomomi Sasaki:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
Daniel Stillman:
... and separating what you're experiencing from what's happening in the room, and then making a decision about what you want to do with it.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Daniel Stillman:
Which is work, for sure.
Tomomi Sasaki:
It is a lot of work. It is a lot of work, which is probably why I believe that if we look at facilitation as a practice, then we put continued care, intending, and investment in it, and it's not just workshop to workshop to workshop. So, that kind of care into the sustainability of how we do it is something that I'm much more conscious of now.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. So, yeah. What is the shift? What's the implication of looking at facilitation as a practice vs. I think sometimes people have been saying to me for the last year, "Oh, what are your tips and tricks for facilitating better online?" There's a certain part of me that goes, "You just want me to write it down on an index card for you so that you can just go do it?" Whereas there's what to do and then there's how to show up and how you will choose to do things in the moment are determined by what you think is possible, what your relationship to power is, and I can't give you any tips or tricks about changing your relationship to power necessarily, although we could, I guess.
Tomomi Sasaki:
If only it was really that easy, right?
Daniel Stillman:
Right.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Yeah.
Daniel Stillman:
Because that's about your childhood and your culture and your gender and everything. That's a lot of baggage. So, then it seems like it's very obvious that facilitative leadership is a practice.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Yes. I would love if we moved the conversation, not you and I, but in general-
Daniel Stillman:
Because we can.
Tomomi Sasaki:
... facilitation, even in design in general as well, we move away from this idea of tips and tricks. It's like, yes, we do need techniques and there are very useful advice that can be given. But if we operate just in that space, it's not so interesting.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. So, I have your Twitter thread in front of me because I think you dropped so much juicy knowledge here, that you said, "Building a practice sends a different kind of signal to the universe. This gives me watershed experiences that blow apart a door I didn't know was there. Behind each door is a whole new landscape to explore and new friends to explore with."
Tomomi Sasaki:
Yeah. That was quite an emotional outpouring on twitter…
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. I want to know what happened that day.
Tomomi Sasaki:
... that I did after a workshop that I facilitated with a friend, and it was one of the sessions in our Liberating Structures practice group. So, my friend JD had wanted to do something around tragedies and gifts. These are not words I typically use in my day to day. So, this was great, right? It was my learning edge to grapple with these concepts. But what had happened in that space was so amazing. Even though we already knew each other quite well and had been together in practice for a few months, now it just unlocked this level of connection that we had never felt before between ourselves, but also within ourselves with our facilitation practice, but also just as people.
Tomomi Sasaki:
I think in that moment, I was deeply grateful to have had that opportunity and also, yeah, to have friends to practice with this kind of frame. But that's a real gift. I'm a big believer in signals, like what we put out weak signals that we catch and maybe ignore, and also how we receive signals is something that I think about a lot. I think that when we approach something as a practice and we have intentional growth in mind, it attracts some things that maybe would have never come our way, or we notice things that we would have just passed on by.
Tomomi Sasaki:
One thing about having a practice is that it allows us to actively seek out peers and people to practice with. For something like facilitation, which is always done with other people, doesn't really make sense to just be in your little corner and read about facilitation. Right? You have to go out and really grapple with that liveness. So, maybe even more than other disciplines. For something like facilitation, it's always in the relationship with who you're doing it with.
Tomomi Sasaki:
So, I try to be active in communities of practice, try to co-facilitate with people who have very different styles than myself. I also try to be a participant. I find that as facilitators, we are often the ones facilitating and don't really get an opportunity to be a participant. Then when we are, we're very judgy. Like, oh, I wouldn’t do that.
Daniel Stillman:
It can be excruciating to put yourself ... Talk about power transference, right? I like to control the conversations because it creates safety for me and a wall that nobody gets behind. Being in someone else's session and having to go into a breakout room and-
Tomomi Sasaki:
We know exactly what to do and what not to do. So, yeah. Sometimes, we mess with that. But yeah. It's great to be a facilitator. Sorry. See, I'm already mistaking ... To be a participant of somebody who's a very skilled facilitator and we can just step out of that mindset and just really experience that ourselves. I think we need to continuously build that lived experience on both sides.
Daniel Stillman:
So, what is it that you learn from watching another facilitator show up as they do? What is that process like for you? Is it emulation? Is it simulation? What do you feel like you're peeling off from that experience?
Tomomi Sasaki:
I think it's based first in observation. So, as a co-facilitator, you know how the whole thing is designed and you get a sense of that person. Then when you step into that facilitator role, you start to sense what they're doing deliberately or not, and then how the energy in the room is changing or the conversation is changing. So, I think that gives you this perspective on what power is there and what's being deployed and what the reaction is. So, there's definitely a lot of observation in real-time.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Then the gift of having a co-facilitator, especially one where there's a mutual recognition that we want to grow and be better and help each other, is there's so much debriefing and exchange that just happens naturally. Maybe it's the two minutes while you go grab a coffee, it's lunch during the workshop, and maybe it's the one hour beer that you have afterwards. But all of these conversations, they're like tiny, tiny feedback loops that you can only get from somebody, a fellow practitioner that just experienced the same thing. So, this is invaluable, I think, to get that explicit feedback loop with each other.
Daniel Stillman:
Yes, and rare, especially as you go higher and higher in your game. I think it's getting a chance to facilitate with another master facilitator and then get to be seen and noticed by them is nontrivial.
Tomomi Sasaki:
It's very special. Yes. I would say that somebody with maybe less experience, but just a different perspective or different style, is and can be equally as valuable because it forces you to articulate some things that maybe you just skip over, and also with somebody who's maybe less field experience. It forces you to, I don't know, just bring a fresher perspective, and you also just get a different pair of eyes on the way that ... maybe something that you take for granted. So, I think that having that variety in the people that you co-facilitate with is really important.
Daniel Stillman:
It's a really great reminder. I think I personally struggle with working on my own practice and making time to play with others. It's nontrivial. How do you find that balance between your communities of practice and your professional work, which presumably takes a fair amount of your time?
Tomomi Sasaki:
Yeah. Just blends all together, I think. There's a lot of inspiration that we take, even without having that label facilitator. Right? Like, okay. So, I'm stuck at home, so I'm watching a lot of Netflix and YouTube, and one thing I really like to watch on YouTube is kindergarten teachers explaining how they keep the attention of kids.
Daniel Stillman:
Wow.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Yeah. I don't have kids, but I'm just addicted to these videos because there's such a craft in the way that they can talk about what they're doing, and then just the sheer repetition, because they're kids that maybe we don't get in our professional context because it changes so much, I think is great. I like watching.
Daniel Stillman:
They do it every day, all day.
Tomomi Sasaki:
They do it every day. Yeah. Then the same thing every year.
Daniel Stillman:
Room management is a real thing. Whenever I work with somebody who has an education background, I feel like they understand room management and energy management, and also being a bigger version of yourself as a character.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Yeah. All these things that I wish ... I wish I had known these concepts when I was starting out, and not just the process and the methodology and the canvas, which is where most facilitators in the design space start out. It's like, what's the activity I need to run?
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. I'm curious about how you take that foundational capacity of facilitation. What else do you feel like you apply it to in your larger work? Where else does it seep into that when it's not just here's a canvas and we're time boxing?
Tomomi Sasaki:
Right. You brought up leadership a little while back, and I think this is definitely my area focus as well. If we increase our capability for facilitation, the way we lead just changes drastically. So, the way I manage my team, the way I interact with, well, anybody, really, I think has shifted quite a bit since I started investing in my facilitation practice.
Daniel Stillman:
What do you see as what those shifts are? What do you feel like has shifted the most profoundly for you in the ways that you lead?
Tomomi Sasaki:
To put utmost value in the way we're having conversations and relating to each other, and that as long as we tend to this, things will follow. So, recently, I've been thinking of facilitation as a capability and equating it to things like writing and presenting, which we all do, even if we're not writers or presenters. We know we need to do these things, regardless of our role or where we are in our experience.
Tomomi Sasaki:
I think in our heads, we know that if we invested in these skills, it would really help with everything else. If I were a better writer, I can write crisper email and more pointy Slack messages, sharper reports, and all these things.
Daniel Stillman:
And amazing tweets. Solid tweets.
Tomomi Sasaki:
There's so much areas in which we need to be using these skills, but somehow, we don't really focus on them, and I think facilitation is actually quite similar. Even if we are not facilitators, or maybe we're not even doing workshops, we're always in some kind of meeting, and in a position to need someone to do something. That's going to happen maybe in relationship and in conversation.
Tomomi Sasaki:
So, yeah. I feel like this is, especially since so many of us are working remotely and there's just so much uncertainty, that ability to hold that conversation is just so critical. So, something that I've been asking myself is really, how can we build that among the people that we work with? Doesn't really work if just one person is really good at it. Right? It has to be this organizational capability.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. It's had to scale that, I've found, especially when you think about what everyone says, especially now that we're all remote, as a time is so challenging, or time to even have these types of intentional conversations has been stripped down, and our time to give to growth is also stripped down. I'll just go back to something you said earlier, the willingness to be playful with our relationship to power, I think, is an amazing leadership skill. It's an amazing facilitation skill, and again, that is, I think, always going to be rare because most people have conventional relationships to power and the willingness to, as Liberating Structures does, flatten the space and allow everyone to participate. That's revolutionary. It's radical perspective.
Tomomi Sasaki:
You should write another book, Dan. I would love to read it.
Daniel Stillman:
You're too kind. I'd rather read your books.
Tomomi Sasaki:
The idea of power is really, yeah, it's so fascinating, and then this idea that to become a better facilitator or to improve our quality of conversations, that we need to understand power, which includes understanding who you are in that picture. So, yeah. I moved to Paris six years ago and now facilitate in quite different environments from when I was living in Tokyo. Who other people think I am is part of what I need to consider. Can't just try to present myself in one way if it's a room full of strangers. So, I think moving countries was one thing that's really made me more aware of the dynamics of people in the room.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. What have you noticed? What's different? Because it sounds like you said ... I think I disagree with what you said. I feel like if you're in a room full of strangers, you get to be whoever you want to be. But I'm also a White man. So, what do I know? Right? It's like, I feel general privilege and I don't feel like there's a general societal idea about who I am in a negative ... Well, actually, I don't know. Let's take a [inaudible 00:29:15]. These days, yes. Is it because you feel seen as a Japanese woman and that there are ideas about that that you are opposing or feel like you have to give in to?
Tomomi Sasaki:
First, a recognition of what they see. Right?
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Tomomi Sasaki:
A lot of times, I am the smallest person in the room.
Daniel Stillman:
That's fair.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Just physically. I'm actually average Japanese female height. I'm literally average. But that's on my island.
Daniel Stillman:
I see. So, your context is you are different in a different context. I understand that-
Tomomi Sasaki:
Yes. Always.
Daniel Stillman:
... in Japan, you're average.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Yes. I'm average. But if I'm in a room full of Germans, for instance, I'm probably the smallest person there. So, I don't know. Even something like that is something I'm conscious of, like where I'm standing in the room or what I do with my voice. If I'm not feeling grounded in that moment and I need to ask them to fold a paper in eight pieces because we're going to do crazy eights, if I'm not grounded in that moment, that's not going to happen. So, something as seemingly trivial as that are these tiny, tiny, tiny things that I've become much more aware of just because I have to.
Tomomi Sasaki:
But then it's also among participants as well, right? You start to see how people are relating to each other and how that's influencing what's going on in that conversation. So, I do try to be aware, and if it's something that needs to be explicitly brought into the conversation or not is then a decision that we can make or ask for.
Daniel Stillman:
What's interesting about this and this idea of regulating yourself, I'm the beginning of the middle of a book called Seven and a Half Lessons About Your Brain, and I'm blanking on the name of the author, but one of the things she talks about, it's very, very well founded in good neuroscience, which I think seems rare. She says your brain is actually not for thinking. That's the half lesson at the beginning of the books. Your brain is not for thinking. It's actually for regulating your body and moving towards food and away from death.
Daniel Stillman:
That's the actual function is our brain is managing our whole body. It's helping us regulate ourself. What I think many people don't understand is that this is extra emotional work that you have to do that some people who are unaware of these things, it's not going into their budget. So, some of your budget is being spent on are people willing to hear me? Is it okay if I speak up? Can I be my largest version of myself? Is that going to be weird and hard for people to understand? It's literally taxing.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Then we wonder why things aren't going the way we imagined. Then we ask for tips and tricks.
Daniel Stillman:
Right. Exactly, and the tip is [crosstalk 00:32:50] be your best self. I feel like for myself, when you talked about being small, in my first book, it was dedicated to my origami teacher, Michael Shall, who was a very small person who had an incredibly loud voice. He was also a White male Jewish American who was the youngest and always had to fight his way through.
Daniel Stillman:
So, that's how he became, and I think I learned from him when I was 13 or 14, watching this small man hold a whole room of 60 people in thrall, I think that's, in a way, when we see other facilitators, at least, this is my theory, is we can try to emulate someone else's way of showing up, but potentially at a cost, unless we can find it in ourselves. What's the largest version of Tomomi? What's the hugest version of Tomomi that you can become?
Tomomi Sasaki:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Do you remember the exercise we did in your master class, which is with the shield?
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Was it called the shield?
Daniel Stillman:
The coat of arms.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Coat of arms.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Yeah. Do you want to introduce this concept?
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. It's actually a really great ... I got burned recently for using spirit animal in a workshop. A person pointed out to me that this is cultural appropriation and uncool, and I was like, "Oh, god," because what's great about the coat of arms is that it appropriates European heraldry, which is not as complicated or convoluted. So, the idea of the coat of arms is to think about what would be on your sigil. When Game of Thrones was at its height, it was very easy as well to use Game of Thrones as a reference because everyone knew the banners and what's on them.
Daniel Stillman:
So, doing that opening of, oh, what would be on your banner? What animals, what motto, what symbols, what tools, and then people build that together. It's a great way to introduce yourself. It's also a great team tool. Right? You did that in the master class?
Tomomi Sasaki:
Yeah, absolutely. I did that. That's right. I think what struck me was that in facilitation, we think so much about the participants, and the first question you basically asked in the master class was who are you? Until that moment, I hadn't really thought about that, and I think that's why I was getting so burnt out. You give and give without really an awareness of what you're doing to yourself or what you need to be. Then the realization is that, oh, that's where your strength comes from, it's where the practice needs to be built on, because can't change that much, right?
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Tomomi Sasaki:
So, might as well work with what you have. So, yeah. I'm so grateful for you having triggered that realization.
Daniel Stillman:
Thank you, and I want to go back to the theater analogy because in method acting, one of the processes is to say how is this character different from me? So, one of the things that I would say is if you need to be larger, then there's this relationship between, okay, what's the largest version of me, and then how big is this character that I need to take on? I think it's possible to bridge that gap, to say-
Tomomi Sasaki:
That's interesting.
Daniel Stillman:
... well, I'm not that large. Well, who is that large? Then you act like that person. Because I'm sure you've tapped into larger-ness, being larger than you thought you could be.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Yes. I don't know if the word large resonates with me. I think more of the space and how I am in that space rather than my particular size within that space-
Daniel Stillman:
Yes. Yes. Fair.
Tomomi Sasaki:
... if that makes sense.
Daniel Stillman:
It does.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Yeah.
Daniel Stillman:
So, I feel I would be remiss if I didn't ask you what has been different for you in the last, oh, so year of facilitating, going online. I presume, before you had a mix of in person and remote, and now it's mostly remote, although maybe you-
Tomomi Sasaki:
Mostly online. Yeah.
Daniel Stillman:
Have there been any live sessions in ... I know that some places in Europe are trying to have socially distant in person live sessions, but that seems strange to me.
Tomomi Sasaki:
No. I've not done anything, I think, in person since February, March-ish last year.
Daniel Stillman:
Wow.
Tomomi Sasaki:
What's changed? Yeah. I work very internationally, and so doing workshops online was not a particular hurdle for me. Was interesting to see the more general conversation be around, hey, we don't have to meet each other, it's still fine, kind of reckoning that happened last spring, if you remember.
Daniel Stillman:
I do.
Tomomi Sasaki:
It was like, wait. We didn't know that already? I was a bit confused. I think there's a stronger recognition that this is something organizations need to learn how to do and a willingness to experiment and a recognition that there's a learning curve in it, and it's not just something everyone can be expected to do. So, that's pretty exciting. What I would wish for is for more people to have access to resources and opportunities to fail and people to grow with so that it's something that just keeps growing.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. Yeah. For more people to be part of the conversation. It's such critical skill.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), and just for it to be normal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. What do you think would make that shift possible? First of all, is it possible? I don't know if anybody's even interested in mastering it. As we said, some people just wanted the tips and tricks. Not everybody's interested in this as a practice. This is the Tim Ferris question. If there was a billboard that was on the highway, what would you want people to know about this thing?
Tomomi Sasaki:
That we can all have better, better meetings, and better ways to engage. I agree. Not everyone needs to master it. We can't all do the same thing. It's better if everyone does different things and master different things. But a realization and almost demand better and just not put up with poor interactions is something that I think we could all have and benefit from. Even if you're not interested in learning how to do it yourself, still demand that from your environment would be cool.
Daniel Stillman:
So, the analogy I use is food. You don't need everyone to be a master chef. You do want a certain amount of cooks. But I would love everyone to be a connoisseur. Right? To understand the savor of a delicious, like that was delightful, but maybe a little less this. Or I'd love next time a little more of that. What you're talking about there is there's no best. There's better, and people can do it their own way and have it still be delicious. It's not like there's, oh, everyone has to do-
Tomomi Sasaki:
Right. Have that curiosity.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. This is a really subtle thing you said and I want to make sure everyone noticed this. It's like, everyone can be better, and maybe their better is not better than mine, but different and interesting in that there's something that we can learn from their way of being and their way of showing up that we can then tap into and make ourselves more interesting and better in the way that we show up in the room.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Yes, like enjoy what's happening and have that curiosity to be like, "Oh, that was different." I think this ooh feel is something that only happens if you are appreciating it. Yeah. I like food. I'm always like, "Ooh."
Daniel Stillman:
That was interesting.
Tomomi Sasaki:
That was interesting. Yeah, exactly.
Daniel Stillman:
You shared an ooh moment with us with your co-facilitator where she was, and this is my interpretation, heightening the challenge of the moment, like tragedies and gifts. That's very different than reflecting with rose, thorn, bud, or plus delta. Plus delta is very, very bland in general, and then tragedies and gifts. That's something you were like, "Oh. Interesting." Do you think you'll try that on?
Tomomi Sasaki:
Well, I'm on the path, or I've been on the path to explore what's outside of the design and design thinking canon. So, other styles or other schools of facilitation, and then things like education. Just have other bodies of knowledge and different ways to think about it that ... Well, we're all in our little silos, right? So, what happens if we just jump and work with somebody else, or just encounter a different body of work that has a different language for what's actually very similar things is something that I'm really curious about.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Yeah. I work in design consulting, and so a lot of the facilitation that is around me is very much rooted in rose, thorn, bud. I think there are lots of conversations and, yeah, that maybe are not a good fit. It's just not a good fit because that's not what it was designed for, to talk about tragedies in life, for instance. Then it's like, oh, we need to expand our range of facilitation in order to be able to hold these conversations and then also not feel uncomfortable having them.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. I think this idea of range is a huge concept. Sorry for cutting you off there. Was there more there?
Tomomi Sasaki:
Well, no. I was agreeing with you.
Daniel Stillman:
Okay. I'm curious. So, what are some places you've been feeding yourself? You mentioned Liberating Structures, and if people aren't familiar with Liberating Structures, they should explore it. I definitely want you to share some YouTube teachers that we should be watching. What other fringes or edges, edges for us, but centers for them, are you finding food, nourishment in?
Tomomi Sasaki:
In ways that communities gather, for instance, where the format is not a meeting. It's not a workshop. But maybe it's the way we tell stories, or it's the way a town conveys information, and just looking at different formats that have been established, just in very, very different contexts. I'm just curious about the structures and what that enables and see what translates in other contexts. So, I think that's a lot of fun to tap into.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. This is presenting the idea that there's no place you can't learn from. Right? You can take-
Tomomi Sasaki:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Daniel Stillman:
... an insight, a human interaction insight and bring that into your practice.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Absolutely, and it's also why I'm on YouTube all the time.
Daniel Stillman:
Yes. By the way-
Tomomi Sasaki:
This is what I tell myself.
Daniel Stillman:
... if you can't travel right now, and I presume that if you're listening to this in 2021, you can't or you shouldn't. Sorry, no judging. But just saying, Tomomi has a Brompton, which it's a U-sized bicycle, and she bikes around Japan. I haven't been to Kamakura in more than a decade and I just went on a bike ride with you along the coastline of Japan, and it was delightful. So, everyone should definitely follow you on YouTube in your adventures to buy baguettes and wine.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Thank you. Yeah. I started the YouTube channel over the holidays. It's like, I want to do something fun. I'm always like, "What can we learn and how does it relate to growth?" I'm like, "Just do YouTube to see what that's like," and it's been so much fun.
Daniel Stillman:
What have you learned from it?
Tomomi Sasaki:
I think I'm just enjoying the process. It's kind of basic, but I don't need some kind of, what do I get out of this? Or why am I doing this? It's just fun. For that to be enough, actually, it's more than enough. It's why I'm doing it, and I feel like we've forgotten how to do that. Yeah.
Daniel Stillman:
I think this is so impactful, the idea that the whole effort of an organism, we talked about regulating yourself, you can't use all of your energy for survival. You need to have some leftover for regenerating yourself, for play, and I think it's super important. I've taken on watercolors. I've been watercoloring quotes and design thinking diagrams. So, it's combining some of my hobbies. But watercolor is something that's just so human and predictable. I think it's really important to have something that is flowy, gets you in flow, and is very different from everything else you do. So, good for you for doing ... And thank you for taking me to Japan, because I miss it.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Well, I'm in Paris now. So, trying to wait for the weather to clear up so I can make some more videos. But yeah. I think we don't need to overthink it or talk ourselves ... have a reason that we agree with ourselves, like have a vocabulary to even explain it. Yeah. Just do it and enjoy yourself enjoying it, I think is something that then just lifts everything else that we're trying to do, just by having that space. So, I watch, yeah, I mentioned kindergarten teachers, but I also watch a lot of opera master classes.
Tomomi Sasaki:
I love watching, having, like a student sings, and then somebody who's able to give the technical direction, but also help nurture that creativity and expression and that internal dialogue, but then separate from the performative aspect, which is another thing, and then audience engagement. So, yeah. Opera and then weightlifting coaches, for instance, who are just able to give different cues. So, yeah. All of these things, I find super interesting. What is the language we can give to the knowledge and expertise that we have so that it's translating to somebody and they can do something with it? Then the beauty of the video format, of course, is that we can see that transformation happening before our eyes, and this is super addictive.
Daniel Stillman:
I can't think of anything more impactful because what you're talking about is the ability to help someone change to transform to grow. That's coaching, that's facilitative leadership, so it makes perfect sense to me that you would get energy off of that. That's so cool. I want to watch all of those things with you, because I just watch people cook and do wood turning because it's deeply meditative.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Yes. Meditative. Yes. This is also something we can get from watching videos.
Daniel Stillman:
So, I want to be respectful of your time. What haven't we talked about that we should talk about? What haven't I asked you about that it's important? What remains unsaid about these topics?
Tomomi Sasaki:
Well, we talked about capability and practice and growth and also structures, right?
Daniel Stillman:
Mm-hmm (affirmative). A little bit. We didn't talk about your Medium article, which I'd love to just at least mention. People should read it. I'll link to it in the show notes. Your meta-thinking about multiple sprints, which I think is really great thinking for people who are interested in larger scale change.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Thank you. Yeah. Maybe just a quick note on structure then is, yeah, you mentioned the arrows, which in the article is about the different sprints. So, yeah. My thing with having multiple design sprints or different workshops within a bigger transformation or innovation initiative is that when we're delivering the workshops, we just think of what needs to be done next, like what's the activity and then what's the next workshop. That blinds us from seeing the workshops and facilitation as an intervention into that system that we're trying to, well, supposed to do something about and what everyone is supposed to do something about.
Tomomi Sasaki:
So, developing an eye for seeing the structures that are in place as the intervention is something that I am interested in exploring, and also trying to build more awareness about, I guess, in conversations about facilitation, that it's not just about what you're doing in that activity because it's fractal and it has a place in that bigger picture.
Daniel Stillman:
I think this is an important perspective. I started a slightly controversial thread on LinkedIn about design thinking vs. sprints, and because I quoted somebody who I think said at that first sprint conference who's kind of like an OG design person who was like, "Nothing of great impact ever comes out of one single sprint. It's all about longer work over time." I think somebody took a little bit of ... They're like, "Wait. What do you have against sprints?" I'm like, "Nothing, dude. It's just, a single sprint is about a single decision about a single product."
Daniel Stillman:
For many people, that is a tremendously impactful moment. But I think I'm grateful that there are also people like you who are like, "How do we all swim in one direction and solve lots of problems, or how do we swim in many directions and solve many problems?" Those are two very different ways of meta-facilitating and building structure of making sure we're moving in the right direction.
Tomomi Sasaki:
I think that workshops take so much energy. The pressure is very high that something needs to change from the number of people gathered in that room. That pressure is so high and if you're the one organizing it, that's where your focus is, and we lose sight that what's important is what happens after the workshop. Like, yay, it's done. It's like, no. No, it's not.
Daniel Stillman:
Right. I'm on the couch. What are you talking about after the workshop? Where's my cocktail?
Tomomi Sasaki:
Exactly.
Daniel Stillman:
We won. You're like, "No, no. There's more."
Tomomi Sasaki:
I know. Yeah. Exactly. The game's just beginning. Right?
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. So, that's like the long game and the big game. What advice would you give people who want to facilitate that level of interaction, how to step into that?
Tomomi Sasaki:
What advice do I have? I think it's not something you can do alone. So, the team that you're doing it with, and it can be just one person, but the partnerships that you have with the immediate people around you in carrying out the initiative is what's going to make the biggest difference. So, being able to sit in the pluralities together and not let the whatever's going on knock us over, like build that resilience and that awareness and the language to discuss it, find the people you can do that with, I think would be, well, it's what's worked for me, if I think back to when things have gone really well, and also when things just have really been like, what was that all for? We've all been there, right?
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, and it's like, not for nothing, this is working in conversation. Right?
Tomomi Sasaki:
Yes.
Daniel Stillman:
It is very hard to just make that happen on your own, to draw that diagram and be like, "This is what we should do." Everyone else is going to want to have a voice in that. So, that's another conversation to facilitate, and in terms of languaging, I will link to that article because I think it's such fundamental visual language to just say, "Well, where are we going?"
Tomomi Sasaki:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Where are we and where are we going?
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. Well, so speaking of where we're going, it's getting late in Europe where you're at. You've had a whole day. I'm really grateful for the conversation. It's just super fun to hang out with you. It's been too long.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Aw. Thank you so much, Daniel. I'm such a big fan of the podcast and your work, and as we've already discussed, some of the aha moments that have really shifted for me in conversation with you and in spaces that you've held. So, I feel like it's all connected.
Daniel Stillman:
I'm so honored.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Yeah. I'm really grateful.
Daniel Stillman:
Oh. Thank you so ... I love being in conversation with you. I'm grateful for it.
Tomomi Sasaki:
Me too. Thank you, Daniel.
Daniel Stillman:
Let's call scene. That's perfect. That was awesome. That's so much great stuff in that. I really appreciate that conversation.