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Hello there, conversation designers!
Every conversation - especially the hard ones - is an opportunity to learn more about yourself, to learn about another person and to learn about interpersonal dynamics - if you can set aside judgment and be open to curiosity. I’m SO excited to share this epic podcast conversation with the "queen of Touchy Feely" - Carole Robin, PhD. Carole taught the most popular elective at Stanford Graduate School of Business, Interpersonal Dynamics (mostly known affectionately as "Touchy Feely"!) for nearly 20 years and is co-author (with co-teacher David Bradford) of the excellent book Connect: Building Exceptional Relationships with Family, Friends and Colleagues.
She has a vast reserve of wisdom to share. We discuss the importance of navigating vulnerability and intentional connection as an essential leadership skill and unpack some of her most powerful principles of effective communication. We also talk about Carole’s conversations with her own personal AI, trained on all of her past writings and course notes…and how it helped her evolve how she tells her own story!
Building exceptional relationships is work that’s done one conversation at a time. Carole’s insights can help you unlock the potential in each conversation.
Links and Clips
Award winning book: Connect: Building Exceptional Relationships with Family, Friends and Colleagues
Clips:
Get a tattoo that says: Get Curious
https://youtube.com/shorts/us-pJ5t79V0
Anger is a secondary emotion
https://youtube.com/shorts/Kp2rJAN7r0g
Speak what’s true and kind
https://youtube.com/shorts/1YUm29gGEl8
Every Conversation is an opportunity to learn about Conversation Dynamics:
The perils of trying to be a perfect leader
The Most Damaging Mindset: Withholding is Good
More about Carole
Carole Robin, PhD, is a distinguished educator and co-founder of Leaders in Tech. She served as the Dorothy J. King Lecturer in Leadership at Stanford Graduate School of Business, where she played a pivotal role in developing the acclaimed "Interpersonal Dynamics" course, popularly known as "Touchy Feely." Prior to her academic career, Carole was a partner in an international consulting firm and held a senior management position in a Fortune 500 company. During her extensive career in HR and leadership development, she accumulated valuable experience over several years, providing executive coaching and team-building to a wide range of organizations. Carole is celebrated for her contributions to leadership development, focusing on interpersonal skills that foster exceptional relationships in both professional and personal settings. Her work has influenced countless leaders and teams, helping them communicate more effectively and build robust, meaningful connections. In addition to her academic achievements, Carole co-authored the book Connect: Building Exceptional Relationships with Family, Friends, and Colleagues, encapsulating her life's mission to teach the art of human connection.
Key Moments
00:00 The Art of Greeting with Interpersonal Dynamics in mind
03:00 AI and Personal Narratives: The Evolution of Carole’s Story in collaboration with her personal AI
06:01 Leadership Lessons: Emotions in Business
09:06 Vulnerability vs. Strength: The Leadership Paradox
12:04 Transparency in Leadership: The Balance of Sharing
14:58 Strategic Authenticity: Navigating Vulnerability
18:01 True and Kind: The Principles of Effective Communication
20:50 The Importance of Self-Care for Leaders
21:59 Navigating Emotions in Leadership
23:49 Vulnerability and Authenticity in Leadership
30:07 Self-Management and Emotional Discipline
32:59 Curiosity as Leadership superpower
37:57 The Work of Building Relationships
Full AI Generated Transcript
Carole Robin (00:00)
Launch!
Daniel Stillman (00:02)
Well,
Carole, thank you so much. Welcome to the conversation factory once again, or for the first time officially. I'm really glad. It's good to see you.
Carole Robin (00:11)
Thank you. Thank you. It's nice to be seen.
Daniel Stillman (00:16)
I, you know, it's so funny because we were just talking about this before we even started about like the question, how are you and how big it is for some people. And I feel like it's this tiny little microcosm of interpersonal dynamics of deciding to, as I do, to say it's good to see you as opposed to asking a question that can even be harder to answer. Like what's lighting you up right now or what's, you know, there's lots of different ways that people can try to frame that question.
Carole Robin (00:42)
yeah.
Daniel Stillman (00:45)
I feel like my approach speaks the all the inarguable truth that it's hey, it's good to see you. What do you do when you say when you see people? How do you try to intentionally greet them?
Carole Robin (00:59)
Well, you my answer to that is going to be a little bit of a window on how I view interpersonal dynamics in general, which is there's no one size fits all. It depends on who the person is, what I know about them, whether it's the first time I've ever met them, whether we go back a long way. So, you know, I don't have a stock thing that I...
that I say. usually, I often when I'm when uncertain I will do what you did which is, Jesus it's nice to see you or it's very nice to meet you if I've never met somebody. I think in keeping with my general, what I teach frankly in my general philosophy is starting with a question asks the other person to be potentially to be vulnerable first.
Daniel Stillman (01:39)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Carole Robin (01:59)
And since I think that a willingness to be a little bit vulnerable in becoming more known and seen requires that I take the first step, then I might not start with a question. I might start with, know, in my case, you know, we were just talking about the fact that I've had long COVID for two and a half years. it's when people say to me, how are you? That's a complicated question to ask me.
Daniel Stillman (02:11)
Yeah.
Yeah.
It is.
Carole Robin (02:29)
And so what I much prefer is how are you right now? Or how are you today? If they're going to ask me a question. But the other thing that I often will do when I'm the initiator is I'll say, it's really lovely to see you. I'm so happy we're getting a chance to talk because I don't always have the energy these days to do it.
I might stop there. I might not give you my entire life story because you may or may not want to hear it. And then I take my cues from you based on how you respond.
Daniel Stillman (03:07)
Right? Yeah.
This is the you're putting the dynamics in the interpersonal dynamics like it's it's not putting your foot in the same river twice and and waiting to see where the energy is coming back from the other person.
Carole Robin (03:24)
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
exactly.
Daniel Stillman (03:28)
So one of the things I wanted to sort of officially start off with, and we covered some of this in our last conversation, but I wanted to get it on the record because it's so interesting the conversations that you've had and that I've had with your AI. And I think one of the things that people really love about talking to the bots is that they are always ready to talk to us. They are 100 % there. You can ask them a million questions and they're not going to go,
Carole Robin (03:37)
Yes.
Yeah.
Daniel Stillman (03:58)
They're not gonna sigh and be like, okay, like, let's take this one more angle. They'll be like, okay, sure. Let's keep let's keep going. And I thought the thing that was so interesting was the ways in which you evolved how you talk about your origin story, based on the AI that you've that is you all the things you've written and all the things you've you've said professionally.
Carole Robin (03:59)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Daniel Stillman (04:26)
It rephrased
your sort of origin story and you're like, that's interesting. I kind of like that.
Carole Robin (04:33)
Yeah, what it did frankly is it made it much more succinct. So when people used to ask me, so how did you get started in this work or what's your origin story? I had a long meandering answer because the fact is it was a long meandering journey. And so now when somebody says, so how did you get started or what's your origin story?
Daniel Stillman (04:53)
That's how you experienced it going forward.
Carole Robin (05:02)
I'll say, well, do you want the full big, long meandering story or do you want the essence of the story? And that's what the AI gave me. The essence, an anecdote from that long meandering story that is the essence of the story. So I loved that, you know, that my own AI took my own work and essentially picked out
Daniel Stillman (05:19)
Yeah.
Hahaha!
Carole Robin (05:31)
something that was 100 % accurate. That's why I love my own AI as opposed to going to chat GPT and saying, how did Carole Robin get her start? Chat GPT will give you 60 % of the answer correctly. Carole Robin AI will give you 100 % of the story or 100 % of the answer because it's only ever been fed my work. So I don't know if you want to go into the details of what that story actually is.
Daniel Stillman (05:36)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Carole Robin (06:01)
as opposed to just talking about the fact that the AI was so helpful. Maybe everybody's like, so all right already, what's the origin story? People who are listening to this.
Daniel Stillman (06:01)
Sure, we can go. We don't just have to stay meta.
I know we can't ask them, but I will just
say it's so interesting that Aya just like killed your darling. So they're like, okay, well, here's the heart of the matter. And you were like, yeah, that's accurate. And that felt delightful to you, if I recall.
Carole Robin (06:20)
Yeah.
It did because it gave me an alternative to the long meandering story. So it doesn't replace it. Because there are sometimes people say, no, want the nitty gritty, the whole detail. But sometimes I can just start with what my AI gave me. And then somebody can say, then how did you get to that? And then where did you go from there? So they can always ask more questions.
Daniel Stillman (06:30)
Yes.
her.
Yes.
Carole Robin (06:53)
But
the bottom line is that I am not a career academic. I had four different careers before I ever ended up at Stanford teaching interpersonal dynamics. before I became known as the queen of touchy feely at Stanford. But way before that, I was running a 13 Western state region for an industrial automation company that I had gone to work for.
And when I'd gone to work for them, I was the first woman hired into a non-clerical job at the largest industrial automation company in the world. So I learned very quickly. So obviously, I'm old. That's not the case anymore. It's still regrettably not 50-50, but there are
Daniel Stillman (07:28)
Cheers.
No, it is not.
Carole Robin (07:49)
There
aren't any onlys the way that I was. And I learned very quickly that if I was going to succeed, there were rules to play by and that one of those rules was you leave your feelings in the parking lot. There is no place in business for feelings. So I was like, OK. I was young. It was my first job out of college. I was like, OK, I get it. So I
Daniel Stillman (08:05)
Yes.
Carole Robin (08:19)
I learned to play by that rule and I was also a quick study and I was pretty ambitious and so I kept getting promoted and now fast forward 10 years. And I am at an offsite with my team who is still all guys by the way. I did finally fix that but not at the time of this anecdote. And I got a little excited about what I thought we could do. I had this idea and I got excited. And I'm getting crickets.
One of my guys says, you, Carole, is that water in the corner of your eye? Are you gonna cry? And I said, what? And he said, are you human after all? Are you human after all? And when he said, are you human after all? I burst out crying. And I said, you don't think I'm effing human? I did use the full expletive, but I don't know who your audience is, so I won't offend anyone.
Daniel Stillman (09:06)
Hmm.
Carole Robin (09:20)
I don't think there's anything more important for us to talk about than that. And I tore up our agenda and we spent the next two days talking about who we were and why we were there and what we wanted and needed from each other. And to this day, I believe that was the day I became a leader. And to this day, I believe that was the day we became an unstoppable team. I know we became an unstoppable team. And
Daniel Stillman (09:40)
Yeah.
Carole Robin (09:41)
Even though it was many years before I ended up at the Stanford Graduate School of Business teaching interpersonal dynamics and the importance of emotions and feelings in business, that was really the start.
Daniel Stillman (09:50)
Yes.
So there's so many layers to the story. And the first thing is like, can tell that you, you know, as a seminal story, you don't tire of it because you see the truth in it. I think that's really beautiful.
Carole Robin (10:04)
Yeah,
I think that's a great accurate observation on your part.
Daniel Stillman (10:11)
Thank you. So last time we talked off the record, I was asking for some advice for one of my coaches who had gone through your course. And I think it's still in some ways struggling with one of the big questions that we were addressing. You know, there's there's I asked your AI about a list of questions that you don't get asked often enough. And they listed all these limiting beliefs and
You know, vulnerability equals weakness was number one on the list. Disclosure will be used against me is second on the list. Feedback will damage relationships. Fear of conflict. The heroic model of leadership, this idea that leaders have to look and be perfect. The other one that's not necessarily related to this particular incident, small annoyances aren't worth raising. Boy, that is so not true. But.
Carole Robin (11:05)
Exactly, limiting belief.
Daniel Stillman (11:08)
Is there anything that you think your AI man is that you're like, no, no, this is a incredibly damaging, limiting belief that I see leaders suffering from needlessly.
Carole Robin (11:19)
The more I withhold, the better off I'm going to be. The better off I'm going to be and the better off the relationship is going to be, the more I withhold. That's another limited belief.
Daniel Stillman (11:27)
Wow. Well,
because it's a classic negotiation tactic or idea that like, if I have informational leverage and I know something they don't, then it's good.
Carole Robin (11:39)
I mean, becomes a limited, it doesn't mean it's never true. It's a limiting belief because it does not apply to a lot of situations. And yet we blanket apply it.
Daniel Stillman (11:51)
Yeah. Yes. So I think that's a really interesting one because certainly in the getting to yes mindset, the more you share, the more possibility there is to find a win-win scenario. So I think, you know, there's an entire philosophy of negotiation that says the more transparency we have, the more likely we are to create a good outcome. So we can argue against that.
Carole Robin (12:04)
Exactly.
Right. And the opposite,
the opposite Daniel is also true, which is the closer I hold my cards, the closer you're going to hold yours. And then I'm going to hold mine closer, then you're going to hold yours closer. And pretty soon what we've created is something that we call progressive impoverishment. In academia, have fancy terms for simple concepts. Basically, we tell each other less and less. And then we're both playing with like no cards.
Daniel Stillman (12:35)
Yeah.
It's an inward spiral. Yeah. And again, this is the dynamics of interpersonal dynamics. Like if I lean back, you somehow sense that I'm leaning back and you just say, OK, well, that's the game now. The game is called Lean Back.
Carole Robin (12:46)
Exactly.
Thanks.
Well, and additionally, I feel more vulnerable. If you're not gonna tell me anything and I've told you something and you're not gonna reciprocate, I'm not gonna tell you more. I'm gonna be like, ooh, maybe I shouldn't have even said that.
Daniel Stillman (13:12)
Yeah, yeah. Now, I mean, it's shocking. I mean, this is even a rabbit hole. There are some, I think, young women today who don't identify as feminists because your generation solved so many issues that they kind of take for granted. that's, know, yeah, well, fair. I mean, it's but when we talked about this question of gender and vulnerability in leadership, we stock we talked to before and you talk a lot about.
Carole Robin (13:27)
so many issues we didn't solve.
Daniel Stillman (13:40)
vulnerability is a strength because of the breaking of that downward spiral. If someone leans forward, everyone else can lean forward, leaders can go first. But it needs to be appropriate for the context, both in the moment, but also presumably in the story of the arc of the relationship for women and other marginalized groups in leadership positions. They face pressure to conform to masculine ideals.
Carole Robin (13:54)
except
Yes.
Norms. Norms.
Daniel Stillman (14:09)
norms.
Yeah. And they get punished for being too masculine. They get punished for being too feminine. And how do they navigate that being like vulnerable and also authentic and credible?
can we unpack that a little bit? Because I think you were doing the right thing up until you realized it wasn't the right thing.
Carole Robin (14:31)
Right, right. So if we go back to my story, if I had burst out crying after I'd been there for six months, I would have never ended up running a 13 Western state $50 million business. So timing matters. Whether or not you've established your credibility matters. Context, it's all about context.
Daniel Stillman (14:44)
Yeah.
Yes.
Carole Robin (14:58)
You know, I'm glad you brought up the word appropriate because it's not bleh. I'm just going to tell you everything. It's, and, and I hesitate to use this word because it breaks it. It has the connotation that it's very transactional, which it's not, but it's strategic. And what I mean by that is.
And I think I shared this example with you. If I'm the VP of marketing and we've lost share for three months in a row and I stand up in front of the troops and I say, hey, we're crushing it, then I'm not going to be very credible because everybody knows we've lost share for three months in a row. If I stand up and say, so that's the third month we've lost share. have no idea why. I have no idea what to do about it. I'm not even sure I should be your VP of marketing. That might be authentic. That might be vulnerable.
It might be true and it's not appropriate.
Daniel Stillman (15:51)
Hmm.
Yes. Yeah.
Carole Robin (15:56)
There's a third alternative that a lot of people don't really stop to even consider because they see everything as I either tell you everything or I tell you nothing.
Daniel Stillman (16:04)
Mmm.
Carole Robin (16:05)
So I can stand up and say, so, not a secret that we've lost sheriff three months in a row. I really wish I could stand here and tell you I know exactly what's going on and what we should do about it. And I've got an action plan and just send you all off to do it. But I don't. And frankly, I've got some ideas. I bet you all have a bunch of ideas. I've never needed all of you more. Which of those three leaders is the leader you'd like to follow?
Daniel Stillman (16:36)
type C.
Carole Robin (16:36)
No,
I think that's part of the problem that people don't recognize that there are ways to show up with authentically, but appropriately.
Daniel Stillman (16:48)
Yeah, it's a fine, fine line because when I when I first started being curious about this idea of conversation design, which, you know, was sort of incepted into my head from our friend Lisa K Solomon. I remember doing a series of interviews with people like, what does it mean to you to design a conversation? And. There's this subtle play between strategic.
Carole Robin (16:51)
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Daniel Stillman (17:17)
and intentional and manipulative, right? Because, you know, we feel so much. Those of us who are aware of how much we feel, are, maybe we feel more, I'm not sure. I think there's some people who are just numb to what they feel or they feel like they're, you know, peering through a keyhole into the world of themselves. But choosing what to reveal and choosing how much to and to be strategic can feel like a type of inauthenticity.
Carole Robin (17:19)
Absolutely.
Daniel Stillman (17:46)
And I feel like that's a it's a self it's a it's a paradox somehow because it it is the right thing to do. But it is it can feel like I don't know. Yeah. Say more.
Carole Robin (17:54)
I
know what you're saying, but I think it's a trap to view it that way. I think we're back to all or nothing, thinking in a very polarized way. think choosing what you're going to share in that moment based on the context is just, in the context of business, it's just good business.
Daniel Stillman (18:01)
Yes.
Yes.
Carole Robin (18:24)
then it doesn't have to be manipulative. It depends on what your whole reason, what's your end goal? What are you trying to accomplish here? And what are you hoping is the result of the conversation? So if what you're hoping the result of the conversation is connection without losing credibility, as the example I just gave you.
Daniel Stillman (18:52)
Mm.
Carole Robin (18:53)
then you choose to say something like what I just expressed as an example. If your end goal is to be seen as credible at all costs and take absolutely no risk that anybody will see you as anything but, first of all, that's a pretty unrealistic goal. And second of all, you might stand up there and say, yeah, we don't have a problem. I've got this.
And then you've really trapped yourself into having, into being very lonely and very much carrying the entire weight of coming up with a solution, which is a trap a lot of leaders fall into. They don't admit mistakes. They don't admit that they don't know. They think somehow that's, but who wants to follow somebody who never admits they've made a mistake? Who never says, I actually don't know. I could use some help. That does not.
Daniel Stillman (19:26)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Carole Robin (19:50)
build relationship. It might build adulation for a while, that is not relationship. And sooner or later it comes back to bite you.
Daniel Stillman (19:52)
Yeah, no, it does not.
You know, one of the principles my dad taught me about conversation design, broadly speaking, was this principle of true and kind. I don't know if you've come across this idea of we, the rule of speech was speak what's true and speak what's kind. Don't speak what's untrue and unkind. You know, that's right out, as Monty Python would say. And speaking what's true, what's kind but untrue is also not.
Carole Robin (20:21)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Daniel Stillman (20:32)
appropriate. What I'm hearing from you, and this is very, I don't think I'd really thought about the idea that the leader who's kind of threading the needle between speaking what's kind and true to the audience, but what is also kind and true to themselves.
Carole Robin (20:50)
themselves. Yes.
Daniel Stillman (20:53)
because they are a stakeholder lying to yourself or pretending not to feel what you're feeling and veiling is a kind of pent up, it's a dangerous road, is what sounds like what you're saying.
Carole Robin (21:04)
Right, and in fact,
as a leader, I care about my people and I do that to myself. Am I going to be in better shape to be a good leader for them or worse shaped to be a good leader to them? So it's out of care for them that I should take care of me as a leader.
Daniel Stillman (21:13)
Hmm, yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah. So in a way, like what I'm seeing is that the strategic authenticity, which is such a strange term, but in a way it's finding the set point between honesty because that's actually nourishing for yourself and important for yourself to not live out of alignment with your own truth and also what's appropriate and true and kind for the other person. It's really.
Carole Robin (21:48)
And by the way, you're not
being dishonest in any way when you stand up and say, I wish I had all the answers. I don't have them all. I need you.
You're not, you're being perfectly honest.
Daniel Stillman (22:02)
Yeah, yeah.
This also speaks to like the need to process and prepare for these kinds of important conversations.
Carole Robin (22:16)
Would you like me to share a real anecdote of a fellow who was one of our fellows in our Leaders in Tech program who used this? This is a real example that happened very recently. This is the CEO of a startup. This is his third startup. And I'm not going to name any names, but he called...
Daniel Stillman (22:26)
Sure. I would... Yes, please. Wonderful.
Carole Robin (22:43)
You know, he called me not too long ago and said, Carole, I've just got to share this story with you. And I said, what happened? He said, we missed a major deadline. I found out that we were going to miss a major deadline for a software release on a Friday afternoon. And of course, on Monday mornings is the All Hands meeting where the CEO talks to All Hands. He said, and I spent all weekend furious at my team.
Just like, how could they let this happen? How could this be? How could I not have learned about this sooner? What the heck is going on? I can't trust them. Who are these people? I got myself more more worked up, more and more angry. He said, and then I remembered something I had learned from you at Leaders of Tech, which is that anger is often a secondary emotion. And what I mean by that is that beneath anger, there is often fear or hurt.
Daniel Stillman (23:42)
Yeah.
Carole Robin (23:43)
expressing fear and hurt feels a lot more vulnerable than expressing anger in business. We've been socialized to stay away from those yucky vulnerable feelings and anger is okay as long as you express it in a way that's appropriate. He said, so on Monday morning at the All Hands I said, so I want to tell you all that I spent all weekend furious at all of you.
Daniel Stillman (23:49)
Yeah.
Carole Robin (24:11)
ready to fire half of you. Just beside myself with the fact that we missed the software release. And then I remembered this thing that I learned at Leaders in TAC from this woman named Carole Robin that anger is a secondary emotion and I started thinking about what was really going on for me. And I realized that what I was was really scared that I was the only person who was seeing this as catastrophic as I was.
I was afraid and I was, and I felt uncertain on what to do about that. And so I decided to stand up here with all of you today and tell you that's what I'm feeling and ask for your help in solving this problem because I can't solve it by myself. And he said, I have never in all three startups,
And in all the all hands that I've ever done, and in all the problems we've ever addressed, I have never had a group of engineers rally so fast to solve a problem in my entire career.
So that's a very real, very timely, just happened example of what a CEO who decided, you know, I'm not going to stand up there and blast them all. Nobody's going to win doing that. I'm not going to stand up there and tell them it's not a problem. I'm going to admit that this is just, I can't carry the weight of this whole thing all by myself. Ask for help.
Daniel Stillman (25:38)
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's a really interesting moment because when I, you know, expressing the anger in a way that is not angry is a really delicate art.
Carole Robin (26:02)
yeah.
Daniel Stillman (26:04)
Because it could sound like a veiled threat.
Carole Robin (26:07)
Could, depends
on, you gotta listen to the whole conversation.
Daniel Stillman (26:12)
Correct. And I feel like, again, this is the emotional work that I've learned to do, you know, sitting in a men's group, which is, know, like another flavor of an encounter or a tea group, to be able to say to, for example, my wife, I'm really angry about this thing that happened. And to feel it in my body and to communicate it to her in such a way as that she can hear it. It is so much more tempting to say, I am furious with you.
you know, whatever expletives you'd want to add after that. And I can't believe, and it feels really good, but what it creates is terror and contraction and everyone else. And it's certainly not going to create what you want to create.
Carole Robin (26:55)
Well, the fact is that anger is a distancing emotion, period. No matter how you express it, it's going to distance the other person. And the more forcefully you express it, the more distant they're going to get.
Daniel Stillman (26:59)
Yeah.
So anger is a distancing emotion is can we add that to the Carolean principles? What was the principle that you were stating this particular leader was was leveraging that there's a there's usually an emotion behind.
Carole Robin (27:19)
Absolutely, absolutely.
that
anger is a secondary emotion and that if you are willing to go to a vulnerable place and really examine what your anger is about and lead with that it's probably going to be either fear or hurt and if it's one of those two those are connecting emotions
Daniel Stillman (27:32)
Yeah.
Yeah. You have to say, I'm afraid.
Carole Robin (27:52)
I'm afraid or I'm disappointed or I feel let down or I'm sad or I'm hurt. 99 % of the time, those are the things that lie just underneath that anger. But we've been socialized to stay away from saying those things. You know, was at a, I was at a workshop where I made this point as part of my teaching point. And after the workshop, a woman walked up to me.
Daniel Stillman (28:07)
Yeah.
Now, sorry, go ahead, please, sorry.
Carole Robin (28:22)
And she was literally crying. And she said, I just want to thank you because I suddenly understand my husband. I have never felt as clear about what's going on for him as I do in this moment.
Just the concept.
Daniel Stillman (28:44)
Well, anger is certainly something that men are taught is, you know, appropriate.
Carole Robin (28:49)
Right?
It's the only okay feeling.
Daniel Stillman (28:53)
Yeah. So the emotional metabolism, the rate of the emotional metabolism of this particular leader was about a weekend.
Because he said it took him about a weekend to do it.
Carole Robin (29:05)
Great.
Daniel Stillman (29:10)
Sometimes we don't have a weekend. Now, look, as a person who works as an executive coach, I believe that everyone needs a place to, you know, in the same way that an actor goes behind the stage and looks at their notes and their blocking. And you have to go behind the stage to refresh yourself, to regroup and processing with another person. And I've heard people do this with AI as well. Like, I am furious and angry. I mean, if you ask Chachi BT, you know, how do I win a power struggle? Chachi BT is
Carole Robin (29:27)
Regroup.
Daniel Stillman (29:39)
Program to be pro-social and will tell you that a power struggle can't be won and you should look for win-win scenarios But to do that from a place off from of authenticity is is non-tribulally challenging How do you suggest? mean look we can talk about the Corolean principles. I think they're lovely but the question of like it took this guy 48 hours or more to metabolize We sometimes have a moment
Carole Robin (29:51)
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Right? Well, personally, I think a lot of good leadership is about self-management.
And self-management requires discipline. And nine times out of 10, you don't have to respond in that instant. You can take a breath and you can say, you know what, I have a lot going on right now and I need a couple of minutes at least to really process what's going on and think about where I want to go next. And then you can say, you know what,
Daniel Stillman (30:31)
Hmm.
Carole Robin (30:43)
I'm really not in a great position to talk about this anymore right now. And I'm not avoiding it. In fact, give me an hour or give me a day. Set a time and a date when you assure the other person you're coming back to it so that you're not avoiding it. Let's schedule it right now, but right now is a bad time for us to try to continue to have this conversation. We've got too much going on that I really need.
Daniel Stillman (30:47)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Carole Robin (31:11)
Some people are very fast and are able to do it very fast. Give me a minute. And some people are like, give me an hour. And some people are like, give me a day.
Daniel Stillman (31:14)
Mm.
Yeah.
Carole Robin (31:23)
But recognizing that this is not the moment to knee-jerk response is all about self-management, and that's all about self-discipline.
Daniel Stillman (31:36)
And playing for time is like it's it's not a bad move if you can do it from a place of you know, if you can fake coolness for one second, you buy yourself a lot.
Carole Robin (31:46)
Well, and you can also ask for help. So I think this is something that, so let's say I'm having a, let's say that I'm in a relationship with you, you work for me. And I know that I have a tendency to get really worked up. So a little self-knowledge also goes a long way, goes with self-management. But I can say to you, you know, Daniel, I have a tendency to just,
Daniel Stillman (32:09)
Yes.
Carole Robin (32:16)
really react. And one of the things I want to make sure we agree to is when you see me really react and react in a really negative way in an instant, I want to give you permission to say, Carole, do you want to take a minute?
Daniel Stillman (32:38)
Mm.
Carole Robin (32:38)
And that's called trusting you and trusting me and trusting us.
Daniel Stillman (32:45)
It also, one of the principles that you emailed me, this vulnerability comes from strength principle. The willingness to be vulnerable comes from the strength to look at yourself and say, this is where I'm great. This is what I'm working on. And to share that both with yourself and to be honest about what kind of affordances you need to make things easier for you. to what I call like eliminating the out by letting everyone else know that you're working on it too.
Carole Robin (32:59)
Yep, that's right.
Thanks, Zach.
Daniel Stillman (33:14)
then it becomes
impossible to not work on it, which is really, really bold.
Carole Robin (33:17)
Yeah, I used to work with
a guy who used to call it public yourself.
Daniel Stillman (33:20)
Right. It's doxing yourself. It's like here I have no out anymore. It's all publiced. That's wonderful. Would you believe we only have five more minutes, which is gone, you know, the time goes quickly. What haven't we talked about that would be really important, really valuable, really important to talk about.
Carole Robin (33:48)
my gosh. Well, I wrote a whole book on this.
Daniel Stillman (33:50)
I know, and people should read it. Because, know, it's like I
listened to it as an audiobook and I was like, this is some good stuff, you know, I having written and thought a lot about this stuff. Yeah.
Carole Robin (33:59)
And I've spent like 35 years teaching it and it
was many quarters worth of material. So what have we not talked about? A lot.
Daniel Stillman (34:09)
I know.
Well, so if we're to get one tattoo, what would it say? If you what should we pick?
Carole Robin (34:14)
Get curious.
Get curious. So very, very few situations are not helped when they're going awry. They're with judgment. If you can learn, we're back to self-discipline and self-management. But when somebody does something that annoys the heck out of you, infuriates you, disappoints you, makes you feel awful,
Daniel Stillman (34:31)
Hmm.
Carole Robin (34:45)
try first getting curious. I wonder what that's about for them. Wonder what was going on for them that resulted in them doing what they did, taking the actions they took, behaving the way they did. Because the minute you do that, you allow for the possibility that there might be something going on for them that you don't know about.
Daniel Stillman (34:50)
Hmm.
Yes.
Yes. The flip side, by the way, one of your principles is every interaction is an opportunity to learn about yourself. What my mother would say is that anybody who provides me with that opportunity, I should be grateful for them. And in a way, getting curious about them, why am I so angry? Why does this make me angry? How long have I been getting angry about these things?
Carole Robin (35:18)
Exactly.
Yeah. Yep. Yep. Absolutely. In fact, principles
is incomplete. Every opportunity with another human being is an opportunity to learn about yourself, about them, and about interpersonal dynamics.
Daniel Stillman (35:36)
Hmm.
Yes.
Yeah, I missed, I didn't fully quote it, but yes, that's actually what you wrote to me. That's true.
Carole Robin (35:47)
Yeah,
yeah, to your point. so and imagine what the world would be like if that's how we went into the world in our with our interactions, seeing every single one of them as an opportunity to learn about ourselves, about the other person, and about what it takes to build relationship. I mean, we'd live in a very different world.
That's why I do what I do.
Daniel Stillman (36:18)
That would require us to be willing to slow down just a little bit more than I think many people feel comfortable doing.
Carole Robin (36:27)
Yeah, I don't disagree and I don't think you have to slow down nearly as much as you might think you have to. You might have to slow down more at the beginning while you're building. It's like building a muscle. You go to the gym the first time, you know, there's going to be a limit to how much weight you can lift the first time you go to the gym. But over time, you're to be able to lift more and more. So
Daniel Stillman (36:35)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yes.
Carole Robin (36:56)
It's kind of similar. It's a practice and a discipline. No, no, go ahead. Go ahead.
Daniel Stillman (37:00)
Yeah, it is. And sorry, please finish that thought.
No, no, I haven't just it's your it is a discipline. It's work. But it is the but it is the work of of being in the world. Right. Like the other option is, I presume, being in curious about our own reactions and just playing them out ad infinitum and then being curious about other people and how we affect them and how they affect us. Like there are other options, but I don't think that they're very interesting. Certainly not to me.
Carole Robin (37:09)
Exit.
Well, they also lead to bad outcomes we don't necessarily want. So we also don't think through what's going to happen. You you do something that really infuriates me. I then respond with my own anger. Then you get angrier, then I get angrier, then pretty soon it escalates, then who won?
Daniel Stillman (37:35)
Yeah.
Habit.
Carole Robin (37:56)
So, you know, whoever has the loudest screaming voice, that does not build relationship.
Daniel Stillman (37:56)
Habit wins, yeah.
No, it doesn't.
Carole Robin (38:06)
But I want to get back to what you said about work. It is work. And in fact, one of the biggest battles we had when we wrote the book Connect was that our, our publisher wanted, you know, seven easy steps to better relationships. That's not how it works. We might've sold a million copies instead of 120,000, but that would have been disingenuous and untrue. That's not how it works.
Daniel Stillman (38:09)
Yeah.
Carole Robin (38:35)
It is work and unless you care enough to put in the effort, then what you're basically saying is you don't care about the quality of your relationships. That's what you're saying if you're not willing to take, make the effort.
Daniel Stillman (38:55)
Well, I think that is a that is the mic drop moment. We're at time and I know your time is precious. really, I really appreciate you spending some of some of that time with me and with with everyone who is who's listening. I will put into this into the show notes links to your to your book, your your A.I., which is delightful to talk to, not nearly as interesting as talking to you. Is there anything else you'd like me to make sure that I share with folks?
Carole Robin (39:24)
Well,
yeah. So, you know, after I left Stanford, I started an organization called Leaders in Tech. I co-founded it. And essentially, it offers programs that vary from four-day retreats, which are like the course I used to teach that the students called Touchy Feely. Touchy Feely on steroids, four days. You know, you get this immersion experience. And we have year-long programs for founders and CEOs.
And the four day retreats we offer for investors, offer them for founders and CEOs, we offer them for executives, we offer them for a much wider range of people. And if you really, really want to immerse yourself in learning how to do this, it's like learning to meditate. You can go to a meditation retreat and then really have a meditation practice that follows.
Daniel Stillman (40:16)
Mm-hmm.
Carole Robin (40:23)
You can get an app and try it over time and maybe get some traction with an app. So there are different modalities. I do want people to know that there is an opportunity to drop deep into it for four days. And by the way, then you really have a transformative moment, at least one, maybe more.
Daniel Stillman (40:47)
I would love to drink from that fire hose. That sounds really fun. That sounds really fun.
Carole Robin (40:51)
So leadersintech.org.
Daniel Stillman (40:54)
put that in there. Carole, thank you so much for your generosity. I know that we're at time. So thank you so very much.
Carole Robin (40:58)
Absolutely.
Thank you. It was a pleasure and very interesting chat. And I can't wait for it to come out.