Season Nine

Founder-Led Sales and Building Co-founder Relationships with Parallel Health CEO Natalise Kalea Robinson

My guest today is Natalise Kalea Robinson, the Co-Founder and CEO of Parallel Health, a precision skin health company pioneering Microbiome Dermatology™ and precision phage therapy. Natalise and her co-founder and Chief Science Officer Nathan Brown, debuted the company at TechCrunch Disrupt’s Startup Battlefield 200 in 2023. Natalie and Nathan are two of my favorite coaching clients of all time and I am so grateful she was able to take the time to sit down with me for this conversation. 

Parallel's Skin Microbiome Discovery Kit uses whole-genome sequencing to analyze the skin microbiome, and provides Custom Active Phage Serums, personalized prescriptions, and clinical guidance. Parallel was named a World-Changing Idea by Fast Company in 2022 and is supported by Illumina Accelerator, Stanford StartX, and UC Berkeley's HealthEngine.

Formerly a signed recording artist who went on to start her own label and publishing house after graduating from Stanford Graduate School of Business, Natalise has held executive roles across pet tech, consumer beauty, and biotech verticals.

We talk about her perspective on the importance and impact of founder-led sales at an early-stage, cutting-edge startup, focusing on being a translator, adapting her communication style and message depending on the audience. For customers, via social media, her focus is always on how to communicate the science behind the product with direct and plain language, and to help consumers understand how it can be easily integrated into their current skin health routine. Her other key audience are investors where she continuously emphasizes the broader industry transforming potential of the technology, in skincare and beyond, including addressing the pressing need to avoid antibiotic resistance and the potential of phage therapy to help eliminate the problem.

We break down:

  • The Importance of Deep and Authentic Conversations and unpack how Natalise fosters honest and open conversations and has worked to build a company culture that reflects these values. 

  • Intentional Co-founder Relationship Building: We talk about how Natalise and her co-founder, Nathan Brown, approached building a strong relationship intentionally by having regular in-depth conversations and retreats together in some of their favorite spots. She shares some of her favorite questions to bring into these co-founder conversations. 

  • Founder-Led Sales and CEO as Science Translator: Both Natalise and her co-founder Nathan are actively involved in explaining their product to both investors and consumers. We talk about how she approaches adapting her message for different audiences, always striving to put the science ahead of marketing.

  • Highlighting the Potential of Phage Therapy: We dive into some of the science behind phage therapy and its potential as a precise and sustainable alternative to antibiotics.

  • The Value of Open Feedback and Continuous Evolution: Natalise encourages feedback from all levels within her company and believes that good ideas can come from anywhere. She also emphasizes the importance of ongoing communication and alignment between co-founders.

Links

https://www.parallelhealth.io/

Parallel on TechCrunch

Video Highlight LINKS

👀Giving Praise with powerful Specificity

👀Leaning into Difficult Cofounder Conversations

👀In Founder-Led Sales, the Marketing Serves the Science

About Natalise

Natalise Kalea Robinson is the Co-Founder and CEO of Parallel Health, a precision skin health company pioneering Microbiome Dermatology™ and precision phage therapy.

Parallel's Skin Microbiome Discovery Kit uses whole-genome sequencing to analyze the skin microbiome, and provides Custom Active Phage Serums, personalized prescriptions, and clinical guidance. Parallel was named a World-Changing Idea in Fast Company last year and is supported by Illumina Accelerator, Stanford StartX, and UC Berkeley's HealthEngine.

Formerly a signed recording artist who went on to start her own label and publishing house after graduating from Stanford Graduate School of Business, Natalise  has held executive roles across pet tech, consumer beauty, and biotech verticals.

Full Transcript

Daniel Stillman (00:02)

Perfect, here we are, welcome to the Conversation Factory, officially. I'm going to do a proper introduction before any of this happens, so we can just get straight into things and you can just tell me what your favorite types of conversations are.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (00:07)

Thank you.

Okay, like now? Okay. Yeah. My favorite types of conversations. I actually reflected on this actually recently because I was talking to my husband and who is a self-proclaimed introvert, but I actually think he's way more extroverted than he says. I enjoy one-on-one conversations that are

Daniel Stillman (00:25)

Yeah, just we're in happening.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (00:51)

that go below the surface. And I tend to, not consciously, it's not like I intend to, but I tend to go fairly deep pretty quickly with people. And I think I enjoy those conversations the most. I would say like on a scale of one to 10, 10 being super, super deep.

Daniel Stillman (01:21)

Mm-hmm.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (01:21)

like therapy deep, I'd say I like a six. I like a six.

Daniel Stillman (01:24)

you

so just like just wait so if 10 is 10 is like therapy deep.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (01:31)

You

10 is like I'm crying telling you all of my deepest darkest secrets. 10, right? A seven is like, yeah, I like seven. Six, seven is good. I think it's like I'm sharing about, you know, my, I'm being honest and vulnerable about my personality quirks or, you know, what's going on in my life, but, you know, with some balance, you know.

Daniel Stillman (01:38)

Right, right, What's a seven?

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Balanced, balanced realness is a really interesting. That makes sense. It's interesting. Well, so first of all, I feel like your diagnosis of your husband versus his own self diagnosis is a really interesting side side quest that I just want to go on briefly because I feel like I'm on a mission to declare that introverts and extroverts don't exist. Apparently, like 80 percent of people

Natalise Kalea Robinson (02:32)

Hmm.

Daniel Stillman (02:34)

are what are classified as ambiverts, which is to say, I think everyone benefits from time alone and everyone benefits from time with people and everyone needs to regenerate after having time. I think there's like at the 10, you know, if one is introvert and 10 is extrovert, I think those 10s are maybe psychotic. Like people who are like so extroverted, they have no internal life. They don't have their own thoughts and feelings.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (02:41)

Mmm.

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Daniel Stillman (03:04)

that

are just entirely externally. So your husband identifies as an introvert, but you think he's more extroverted than he believes or that he proclaims?

Natalise Kalea Robinson (03:08)

Hmm.

Yeah.

that I think he, that I think he's self, I think he's more of an extrovert than he self identifies as. But I think you said something just really interesting right there, which is that everyone's an ambivert. Okay, I can, I'll go with you on that for sure. Maybe what it is is that there are people who, you you have these people who are really, really, really extroverted. And maybe that also means that,

Daniel Stillman (03:32)

Hmm.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (03:51)

because there are so much on this side of things a lot that their alone time has to also be more intense. And maybe there are people who you're extroverted a little bit, but then your alone time doesn't have to be so intense. So maybe we're on the spectrum of like dynamic versus not as dynamic, maybe.

Daniel Stillman (03:55)

Mm-hmm.

Mmm, that's so interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah,

what an interesting question because it's it's it's what do you do to reconstitute yourself after having gone out into the world is another interesting question. So I have I'm to have so many follow up questions. You'd ask me before we started like, well, what's what's behind this question? I feel like it's everything because I'm wondering if you're in a conversation where it's at a four in terms of like not enough realness and not enough, you know, balancing of interior and exterior.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (04:23)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Daniel Stillman (04:46)

How do you feel like you, what do you do in that point? Do you exit or do you try to create more depth? Like what do you think you do when you're not in the kinds of conversations you want? How do you get it from a four to a six?

Natalise Kalea Robinson (05:04)

I think I just ask questions.

you know, not everyone's game for that. nor do you always want to engage more deeply with specific people, right? but I think if the desire is to go deeper, yeah, I think I ask maybe unexpected questions?

Daniel Stillman (05:14)

Yes.

Right.

Yeah. Do any questions come to mind? Because I think good questions are, they're a rarity and they're important because I think a good question can unlock so much. Right.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (05:32)

You

Well, I think it context matters. think person, yeah. I mean, I just, I am actually recalling a moment. I was at Burning Man last year and literally had met this person for, I don't know, five minutes, 10 minutes. And they said, what's holding you back from being happy?

Daniel Stillman (05:42)

Yeah, fair.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (06:05)

Like, okay, let's go there, okay. You know, so.

Daniel Stillman (06:10)

Yes.

Yeah, did you,

and did you feel like that question was answerable in that moment?

Natalise Kalea Robinson (06:18)

Yeah, well Burning Man's a special place, right? It's a little bit different. So yeah, think, I mean Burning Man is a space where I think all questions can be attempted. So yeah, I gave an honest answer, you know?

Daniel Stillman (06:21)

Yeah, totally.

Yeah, fair, fair.

Well, so, I mean, the context is, I mean, you make a very valid point because context matters and the sort of the magic circle that we're in, you when you step onto the playa, it's this special place where rules are suspended. It's not exactly the Vegas rules. It's some other sort of rules, the Black Rock City rules, I guess. But you are the leader of a company. You create, you host meetings, you create a circle of culture. And I guess I'm wondering how you create a place where

Natalise Kalea Robinson (06:51)

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Daniel Stillman (07:07)

And this is stuff we've talked about in the past, a space where people can be open and honest about the kinds of feedback that they want to give to each other or to say what's really going on or what's wrong or to celebrate what's going right. Like creating a space where these real conversations can happen is non-trivial. And I'm wondering how you think about that. You know, and on the playa, everyone, it's a very egalitarian space. There's no, you know.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (07:19)

Mm.

Daniel Stillman (07:37)

No power dynamics, but obviously in an organization where you are the CEO, there are power dynamics. So I'm curious how you think about creating that real balanced conversation when you are at the helm of the conversation.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (07:39)

Mm.

Yeah,

well I think the first step is being very open about what you want in a culture and saying, you know, I think I'm very upfront with anyone even during onboarding, you know, to say that even though you're filling this role, if there are any...

Any feedback across the company or ways that we can improve, I want to hear it. And I think I've also said a good idea can come from anywhere. Regardless of whether you're the expert or not, sometimes the most creative ideas are from people who are have no idea about not no idea, but you know what I mean, though they're not the experts in in that.

Daniel Stillman (08:33)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (08:49)

in that particular area and they can come up with because they're seeing they come up with ideas that are unique and interesting because they they're not embedded in sort of the how things are done all the time. And so I think being vocal about it but then also you know creating space to have those conversations you know I think we've had

Daniel Stillman (09:01)

Mmm. Yeah.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (09:18)

kind of all hands meetings. can, you all hands meetings can be very functional, like this is what we're doing and we're executing on this, but it can also be like, okay, here's, in the last 10 minutes, like what have you guys, have there been any, you know, kind of thoughts around like broadly how, you know, the direction of the company or how we can improve. I think just creating space for it and asking.

Daniel Stillman (09:47)

Right. What's what's keeping you from fulfilling your dreams? But in. But in a way that is kind of what you're asking is like, what aren't we talking about that we should be talking about? Like what what is unsaid? And really trying to make space for that. I mean, it's a non it's a nontrivial conversation, so I feel like I hear this often where people. Other people who I coach say, like, you know, I try to ask for feedback and there are sometimes a limited.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (09:51)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Daniel Stillman (10:17)

capacity of people to feel like Their opinion is really being asked for that. They really can say what they want to say So it seems like one thing you're doing which I'm just noticing is asking often, right? You know, you can't just ask once and say they clamped up they didn't say stuff. It's it's asking on a regular basis and Creating that space consistently seems to be really important really crucial

Natalise Kalea Robinson (10:24)

Mm-hmm

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

Yeah, and I think something actually that came out of one of our sessions was the... I don't know if you gave it a color. Was it like the blue diamond? Remember where we were talking about that? Diamonds versus hearts versus spades? Yeah, the feedback model. Yeah. And we actually have adopted that quite a bit where it's like...

Daniel Stillman (10:57)

Oh yeah, yeah, like the feedback, the feedback model, like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (11:07)

It's like feedback is meaningful when you provide examples in real time. And the more often you can do that, you just kind of get into a mode of constructive feedback, or like useful feedback, I should say, whether positive or negative.

Daniel Stillman (11:13)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I'm just so tickled that that's something and thinking of them as, I see why you would call them blue, because we talked about cool versus warm feedback and sort of like fuzzy versus sharp feedback, right? And so for sure, giving somebody a fuzzy, mean feedback is like.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (11:42)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Daniel Stillman (11:57)

That was the worst. That was just terrible. It's really hard feedback to give. By the way, this is totally, I'm going to have Carol Robinson on the podcast. I asked her about that exercise you wanted to know about from Carol Robinson. So I was like, hey, listen, I had a coaching client. She asked me how to do this exercise. I had never done it before. And I actually asked her, she has an AI that she has uploaded.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (12:11)

Carol Abbins. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Daniel Stillman (12:26)

everything she's, it's actually shocking to have a conversation with Carol's AI and then to talk to her about her AI is fascinating. And I actually asked the AI about the, you know, the tapping thing, the exercise. And she was like, yeah, you know, it's, it's, you know, it's a very long exercise to give peep to say like, I've got positive. And, and she reprimanded me several times for using the word negative. She was like, we don't talk about it as positive negative. We talk about it as.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (12:27)

cool!

you

The exercise. Yeah, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm. Mmm.

Daniel Stillman (12:56)

constructive feedback or positive feedback. So, I mean, it seems like you've really taken to heart, like, how are we giving each other feedback on a regular basis and doing it in the near term as, you know, as quickly as possible, as specific as possible, as relevant as possible, as generous as possible. Is that fair to say?

Natalise Kalea Robinson (12:59)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, well,

yeah, 100%. And I think, you know, we've optimized, you know, Nathan and I, my co-founder, for those listening, you know, we've optimized for, we have a rule, it's like the no-assholes rule, right? Now, that may change in the future, maybe, but for now, like, that's the rule. And so, but then what ends up happening is you have a bunch of

Daniel Stillman (13:36)

Hmm.

Hahaha

Natalise Kalea Robinson (13:46)

people who are really kind-hearted and really warm and feedback is really hard, turns out, for most, I mean, it's hard for most people, I think, in general. I think you have to acquire that skill set, but I think for people who are generally kind, it is even harder. And so I think having some parameters around how to do it and to practice it, to use that muscle, I think is how.

Daniel Stillman (14:06)

Hmm.

Yeah, yeah, that's so interesting to hear. I am curious if you could talk a little bit about the experience of asking your team to lean into positive feedback at that, you know, sort of the exercise that we landed on at the end of that call. Because I think it was such a beautiful moment.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (14:33)

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, think it gave a lot of our team members...

a way to bond authentically and to sometimes it's hard to say nice things too. You know, it's like, it's awkward. It's like, you know, but

Daniel Stillman (14:57)

Yes. Right, we want to

be nice, so we don't want to say something mean, but it's also kind of strange to lean into saying something super specifically nice can be equally odd, which is fascinating and true.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (15:07)

Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, to be effusive is like also vulnerable, you know? So I think, you know, what was super helpful about that exercise was saying, okay, if you have a positive, you have positive feedback for someone, that's awesome. But let's back it up with like real instances of where that person made an impression or made you think that.

And I think that actually really made a difference. It made people actually very quite emotional because it's almost like because you have those examples, like you know it's real. Like I'm not just like blowing smoke. You know, it's like I truly believe this and here's why. And I think that's really powerful.

Daniel Stillman (15:46)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's bringing the receipts to the conversation. You are amazing at blank. And I saw the impact of it in these instances. It really does help people feel seen, which is I don't think anybody gets enough of, I feel like we should back up a little bit. I'd love to talk about your relationship with Nathan and like how you guys met, how you decided to build this company and.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (15:56)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel Stillman (16:22)

This is a very big, this is too many questions to ask at once, but this is sort of like, you know, paint the picture of where we want to go. As you know, co-founders, it's such an important and I think critical relationship. And just like any marriage, I think the breakup rates are high. And I know that you and Nathan work really intentionally on cultivating your relationship. So maybe you could take us on the journey of, you know, not at least a Nathan and.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (16:37)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Daniel Stillman (16:51)

and your parallel journeys and your journey in parallel health, obviously.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (16:55)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So our company is called Parallel Health and we've been at it now for a few years. We're coming into our fourth year, which is kind of scary because it feels like really fast. We started the company in 21 and Nathan and I met at a company where we worked previously. And at the time he was the VP of Science, I was the VP of Marketing.

Daniel Stillman (16:59)

You

Hmm.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (17:24)

And we just got along really well. know, Nathan, I mean, Nathan makes it easy because he's like almost like an encyclopedia a little bit, but like a thoughtful one. So you can ask him about really anything and he's at least read about it. And we would just have really interesting conversations. And obviously, you know, he's a phage scientist, which is pretty interesting. And know, phages are...

Daniel Stillman (17:36)

Yes.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (17:52)

The most ubiquitous microbe on the planet and yet they're a little bit They're not yet, you know known in the mainstream. I think as of yet, but I think they will be but Anyway, so we met at a previous company and we just really Talked about the future and vision of what phage therapy could be so for those listening phages are you know microbes they're like microbial snipers that

kill bacteria and they only kill a very specific group or even one bacteria and so we can use them to precisely kill a certain bacteria but leave the good bacteria alone. And so you can think of them as like a

a replacement to antibiotics and in some cases they could work really well with antibiotics and reverse resistance. So you know we met there and

I really just asked a lot of questions around, could we do this and could we do that? And could we, you know, what do you think about this? Just really silly questions. And I think maybe that's where I have empathy for people who give feedback where they have no place to give feedback because I do that all the time. But we just got along well. I think, you know,

we had seen some things really work at that company and we saw things that didn't work and we had sort of this idea for precision health at large and we actually brought this idea to that company and they were sort of lukewarm about it and weren't you know they just thought they knew that that was going to take a lot more capital and so they weren't ready to do that and so you know Nathan ended up leaving and

A few months later, he called me and said, I really have conviction around this idea of precision health, using testing, testing the person first, seeing what microbial overgrowth they have, and then using phage therapy to precisely kill their bacteria that's causing their issue. And he said, I want to do this. I want you to do this with me. What do you think? And.

you know, from a business standpoint, I think there were a few pieces that had to happen, which they did. But I think from a human perspective, we actually took the time to have long...

And sort of go deep on conversations around like, well, what do you envision? Who do you want to be as a founder? Like, you, you know, how do you deal with conflict? You know, who do you, where do you want this to be? Who do you want to be when you grow up? Like kind of like these questions. And, and yeah, we just started in that process and we did go to Esalen actually. So.

Esalen is one of my favorite places in the world. Another, you know, like Burning Man, create space for people to have, you know, in-depth conversations. And he had never been, but he, you know, he's from Oregon originally. And so he appreciated the nature, the nature-y aspect of it. But yeah, we were able to just have, you know, real conversations, you know.

Daniel Stillman (21:01)

Yeah.

Those are some really good conversations to have. Like what kind of a founder do you want to be? What kind of company do you want to?

create? What is your conflict style?

I mean, and I can see how going and we actually goes back to the conversation we had when we started about going to a certain space that can create these types of conversations. How did you make sure that you had the right amount of space for it? To really make sure that you got to the, as you said, like the real and balanced, right? Because I assume that maybe you for this conversation, you want to go to a six point five or seven. Right. To make sure that it's like.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (21:53)

Hmm.

Daniel Stillman (22:02)

really real and that we're getting to the heart of the matter. Like what made you feel like, we, we've, got there. We landed this conversation.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (22:03)

Hmm. Yeah.

Well, I mean, you've met Nathan. He's an easy person to have a conversation with, so that helps. I think one of the things is like, how do I feel? I think we all kind of know how we feel when we're talking to someone. Like, does this person...

Daniel Stillman (22:21)

he is.

Hmm.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (22:35)

Also allowed because of this person also has energy that is also creating space, right? So the other part of it is like how do I feel when I'm around this person? Am I able to be my best self? Am I allowed to? Feel like I'm being honest And and vulnerable without feeling like

Daniel Stillman (22:40)

Yeah.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (22:58)

you know, defensive or, you know, shut down or anything. And I think I was able to be really honest with him. And I think in turn, I think he was able to be, you know, really honest with me. I think, I think that sets a foundation. And I think like, because running a company is like super hard, there's like always things coming at you. And so there, you know, that kind of dynamic is

Daniel Stillman (23:01)

Yes.

Mmm.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (23:28)

tested over time and I think you always have to like recalibrate a bit. I know I'm sort of like digressing but

Daniel Stillman (23:32)

Hmm.

No, not at all. This is actually really, and it lights me up because I feel like it's an awareness of someone else's impact on you. That's part of a conversation as a system, right? There's what you decide to bring to it, the kind of questions you ask. There's the kinds of questions someone asks of you. It's how they respond that lets you know, this is a space where I can be a little bit more vulnerable.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (23:44)

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Mmm.

Yeah

Daniel Stillman (24:00)

than in a normal space. So it's actually really interesting to be super sensitized to someone else's impact on you.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (24:01)

Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, so I guess and this is a cop out answer, like Nathan's like really easy to to chat with, you know, and I think that's kind of his like magic, right? Like he is a great conversationalist. He's super humble himself. He is self aware in that he knows what he's good at and what he's not good at. And I think

Daniel Stillman (24:17)

You

Mm-hmm.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (24:38)

I think I am too. so, but he's, he's better than I am like in that category of self-awareness. And so, yeah, I don't know. think, I think just having that honest conversation. Yeah.

Daniel Stillman (24:54)

It's just so interesting because like I've been doing a lot of interviews for the last couple of years with co-founders about their relationships. And there's so many more that I can't publish because a lot of people don't want to talk about what we've all suffered, which is co-founder trauma, right? In getting into a situation with someone where you're like, my God, why is this so hard? Why am I butting my head up against this?

Natalise Kalea Robinson (25:01)

Hmm.

Mmm.

Daniel Stillman (25:20)

conflict and not knowing how to get out of the conflict. Like there's conflict and then there's conflict resolution styles. But there's some times where you're just like, think of it as like the old Tom and Jerry cartoons where it's just like a cloud of exclamation points and hashes and little limbs going, rare. And why are we still in this? And it's very hard to get out of that. it's actually, it's just great to be like, oh, I'm in a healthy relationship and I like.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (25:25)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Daniel Stillman (25:49)

I like my partner, right? Nathan is sweet and verbal, right? So I think he does know how to verbalize and there's, know, some people where their conflict styles they go, they go inward. I imagine that his is to go outward and to communicate. So that's, know, that's really important to notice, notice those things and to what I would call prototype the partnership. You guys had worked together in a different context before and you really knew a lot more about him.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (25:56)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Daniel Stillman (26:18)

that way and it still does shock me how many people wind up in a partnership having already raised money before they really know their their co-founder it is it it happens a terrifying a terrifying amount

Natalise Kalea Robinson (26:30)

Yeah.

Yeah, I think the other thing that helps is like, we are so different. It's weird because we're similar in like a really strange way, which is like we bond on this concept called hige. It's like a Swedish word, I think.

Daniel Stillman (26:50)

Hmm.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (26:53)

or where it's like this cozy sort melancholy like thing. And I think there's like something about that that like bonds us. And I think that probably tells, if you knew that, I think it says something about like who we are, like behind closed doors. So there's something human about that that we bond on or bond around, but everything else is so different.

Daniel Stillman (26:53)

Hmm.

Mm.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (27:19)

Like we grew up in different, you we studied different things. I mean, I don't think that we would have met in social circles. So I think that there's, because we're so different, we are respectful of each other's lanes, you know, or more respectful than the average. think because it's like, okay, like I just...

Daniel Stillman (27:20)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (27:48)

You handle that, I trust you to handle that. Like I have no choice but to trust you, so cool. You know, and like vice versa. And I think that is, that really is helpful. we've done this for enough years that we have been through, you know, some ups and downs together. And I think that also like, if you can get through those, then I think you're more bonded than not.

Daniel Stillman (27:56)

Yeah.

Yeah, that's for sure. And this is a non-trivial point, by the way, now is that the awareness of difference and the appreciation of difference. actually I hear this a lot when you talk to couples therapists, just the awareness that, you know, these are two different brains. And instead of going, why the hell are you thinking that way? It's like, tell me a little bit more about how you see this situation, because I appreciate that your brain is different than mine. And I even though we don't agree, I

all the time, I expect that your way of looking at the world is going to be interesting and valid. I would like to just unpack it. It's like that's a it's a it's a mode of curiosity and an appreciation for difference rather than like I cannot believe you think differently about this in this moment. It's nontrivial.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (28:51)

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Well, I think like from a human perspective and then also from like a skill set perspective too, right? Because it's like when I look at Parallel Health, it's like such a science driven company, but we're commercializing science, right? We're bringing phages to people so they can use them in their daily lives. And I always say to Nathan, like if he weren't doing it, if he just decided to like quit tomorrow, like I couldn't do it, right?

Daniel Stillman (29:08)

Mm-hmm.

Hmm.

Yeah.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (29:29)

I

wouldn't want to do it. And he says the same about me. And so I think there's like an interesting combination there that we actually do like need each other.

Daniel Stillman (29:44)

Yeah, that and that that feeling is important. It keeps you bonded to each other and makes you want to work through the difficult moments, which is beautiful. Well, I feel like we should definitely talk about one of the one of the topics we were we were sort of brainstorming around focusing on, which is Fender led sales. You two are both out there helping people understand.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (29:50)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Daniel Stillman (30:14)

this product and helping drive adoption, explaining it not just to investors, but to customers. And I'm curious how you think about, and we've talked about authentic conversations inside of the company and culture building inside of the company and relationship building inside of the company. And I think all of these perspectives can be applied to this broader conversation, which is a dialogue with.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (30:15)

Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Daniel Stillman (30:45)

these communities and these other audiences. And I'm just curious how you've been thinking about approaching.

the external conversation, like how you talk about the company and its product in a way that makes sure that people really understand it and bond to it in the way that you and Nathan are bonded to each other.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (31:01)

Hmm. Yeah,

I mean, this is a big question. It's one that I think about a lot. I was at a pitch the other day. We were I was invited to pitch parallel. And, know, you know, in a pitch, you always have to like introduce yourself and like whatever. I've I've I've now like just resigned to the not resigned, but I basically have just I try to keep my intro short. So I just say, hi, I'm Natalie. I'm the co-founder and CEO of Parallel Health. I'm really just the translator.

You know, like, you know, and I think that is actually foundational to the company in some sense, because there are, if you think about personal care companies or skincare companies, beauty companies, does the science serve marketing or does marketing serve science? And 100 % at parallel, marketing serves science.

Daniel Stillman (31:30)

you

Natalise Kalea Robinson (31:55)

So really what we're trying to do is we're trying to do good science and bring great products to market, but then we have to explain them. So the marketing is in service to that mission to bring those products to market. you know, it's not, some people are like, well, you need to like dumb down the science and like, sort of, it's not really dumbing it down. It's just like simplifying it to, you know, and just

What is the most important thing that people need to hear about this? And what's hard is that different people have different desires or different goals. And so that thing that you tell them may be a different angle of what is. And I think that's the nuanced part. yeah, I mean, I think it's really about sharing what

this new technology and next generation science can do to help you in your life.

Daniel Stillman (33:01)

Yeah. Yeah.

curious, I mean, you've been doing it now for a couple of years being on social media. I mean, I think it's also learning the language of these platforms as well. How do you adjust the message and the presentation of your pitch and your story in these very, different contexts, right? Like the Instagram reel and the boardroom. They're very, very different conversations, very, very different contexts.

I'm curious how you think about your presentation of self and what parts of yourself that you bring into those conversations in those two different, very different contexts.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (33:46)

I mean, to be honest, I don't know if I'm, I'm not the best like social media like person. you know, I think I'm still, I don't really know how else to be except for just myself. on social, I don't know. I like, I'm not a Tik TOK person, right? So I don't, I, I'm not like filming all the time. I don't.

Daniel Stillman (34:05)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (34:15)

I don't know how to do that. I don't know how to integrate that into my life at this point. I'm learning. But maybe your question really is around what is the message or how is the message different, which is that on social, it's really about, okay, we are talking about these skin health issues and really how can...

Daniel Stillman (34:34)

Hmm.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (34:43)

How can this product integrate into your skin health journey? How can we be helpful? How can we be supportive? And then, in terms of messaging in the boardroom with investors, think it's really about, what is the big vision? Yes, we are building a skin health, or people know us as a precision skin health company, but...

This is actually a platform technology that can change health outcomes across different diseases. And here's how it could make an impact on a global scale.

Daniel Stillman (35:21)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, which you can, which is crazy. It's so interesting to hear you. It makes a lot of sense because in a way when you're talking to a consumer with a problem, you're trying to communicate. The exact way in which it can fit into their lifestyle right now. The exact way that it can help make their life better right now and the benefit, the clear benefit. And I know that Nathan and I have talked about this to making the science simple and clear.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (35:24)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Daniel Stillman (35:51)

and not mysterious at all and like ground grounding it in reality and doing it through the lens of like just being yourself and very different than when you're you're really talking about the many different applications for this past this one application and the promise of if you if Nathan can do the science at scale with the testing and all the things you're incorporating in your own unique way.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (35:57)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Daniel Stillman (36:22)

Phages can do so much. We don't even know yet everything that they can do, which is...

Natalise Kalea Robinson (36:23)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Daniel Stillman (36:29)

I'm definitely a lover of science and in the promise and the possibility of science. And so it's like, in a way, it's funny, there is a ground that's similar to the two of them, right? Because you're talking about the science in a simple and direct and clear way. But one is the immediate and the other is about the potential.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (36:34)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, I think with customers and patients, we're getting really granular. It's like, okay, here's how phages can help your rosacea. Here's how it can help your acne or whatever. But really the potential is, think of any antibiotic you've ever taken in your life. you've probably, mean, I've taken many different antibiotics for many different things. I mean, theoretically you could have taken a phage for it.

Daniel Stillman (37:15)

Yes.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (37:18)

You could have used a phage for it, but we didn't because the technology wasn't there. But now it is. imagine a world in which we can precisely target bacterial infections in a way that is safer and more sustainable. Because we can't take antibiotics forever. It's just not sustainable.

Daniel Stillman (37:22)

Hmm.

Yeah, actually, can we talk about that a little bit? Because I think folks who are listening who may not be as nerdy as you have become and as I become like knowing this, can you explain the problem of bacterial resistance to antibiotics and like why phages are a much more targeted precision approach to like maybe the next century of treating our...

Natalise Kalea Robinson (37:58)

Yeah.

Resistance, yeah.

Yeah.

Daniel Stillman (38:15)

health illnesses.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (38:16)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, well, let me back up actually and talk about sort of our evolution of like how this actually happened, right? So in the early 1900s, there were two separate scientists in Europe and they found we're going way back. Yeah, I'll do this in 30 seconds. So. Yeah. No.

Daniel Stillman (38:21)

Hmm.

We're going way back everyone.

I know what I'm talking to Nathan, he's like, so there's this Russian paper that's like, no one's reading it. It's on microfiche. I found it on the body of this dead guy.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (38:45)

Okay, so there were two independent European scientists. discovered phage in the early 1900s. They found that these phages could kill bacteria. Now, it was very difficult at that time without technology to identify this phage is for this bacteria, right? So they just threw a bunch of phages and hoped that it worked. So it was starting somewhere. But then a few decades later in the Western world, we found penicillin and antibiotics and we're like, cool.

This works. Like this kills everything and it's cheap to manufacture. So we're like, okay, let's use this. Now the Eastern, like the Eastern black of Europe and Russia did not have access to antibiotics that we had. So they continued in their research with phage because that's really all they had. And so even today, fast forward, you can find phage.

Daniel Stillman (39:18)

Mmm.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (39:42)

kind of concoctions in pharmacies in Moscow and in Eastern Europe and in Georgia, specifically the country, are phage awareness and phages available. But in the Western world, we've continued to take antibiotics. I'm sure people who are listening have taken at least antibiotics like once. But we take them for a lot of different things. And what happens is they work.

It's great that they work, it's good, because it has saved lives. But when you take an antibiotic, you're killing, yes, the bad bacteria, but also good bacteria that aren't causing any issues. And so you're sort of wiping out your microbiome. Now, generally when doctors prescribe antibiotics, you're taking it for like five days or seven days, which is like a normal course. But there are many instances, and dermatologists

are actually the number one prescribers of antibiotics and they're prescribing antibiotics for chronic issues like acne or eczema or HS, et cetera. you we've met patients who have been on antibiotics for not just five days, seven days, but three months, three years, five years, seven years. And so what ends, just to have clear skin.

Daniel Stillman (40:47)

Mm-hmm.

just to have clear skin.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (41:04)

Right? And that's just one example. This happens in other areas of human health as well. so the idea is that when you take antibiotics over and over again, the bacteria is almost like weightlifting for them. Right? It's like, OK, first time you killed me, but now I'm going to come back stronger. Now I'm going to come back stronger. And then eventually the fear is that that antibiotic just doesn't work anymore. So and that has happened.

So where people become resistant to antibiotics, okay, so now what? Now you got to call in, now there are stronger and stronger antibiotics, but those have really severe side effects. know, people where, you know, it's gut issues or the number, even with traditional antibiotics, you know, you have kind of gut issues that can occur like in chronic disease. And then you have, you know, even people have lost their hearing.

Daniel Stillman (41:39)

Hmm.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (42:01)

as a side effect from a very strong antibiotic. So it's not sustainable for us to continue to take antibiotics chronically. And so this is a global health threat, right? The World Health Organization actually released an updated paper. They said that by 2050, over 40 million people will die from an antibiotic resistant infection. So.

Daniel Stillman (42:14)

you

Natalise Kalea Robinson (42:27)

we need other solutions than antibiotics. And phage is an answer to that because phages also kill bacteria, but they just do it in a way that, I mean, they have naturally evolved to kill specific bacteria. So if I know that you have X bacteria, we can go out and find a phage or engineer a phage to kill that bacteria. And there have been many cases now where phages have been used

Daniel Stillman (42:36)

Hmm.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (42:56)

under the emergency use authorization to save lives. And so that has been done. It's just now finding a way to bring phages and masks so that more people can use them and for even chronic issues like skin disease and chronic skin issues.

Daniel Stillman (43:00)

Hmm.

Yeah. And maybe you can explain for folks who aren't familiar with it, like how phages help with like what the relationship is between skincare and your skin microbiome and the products that you all create. I think most people don't even realize like, I might be having X, Y, and Z problem and it could be solved for a very, very simple fix.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (43:29)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Well, a lot of skin issues have bacterial component, bacterial roots, right? A lot of skin issues are there are genetic factors, there's lifestyle factors, there's, you know, your diet, certainly, and also where you live, right? But there's there's always a microbial component at play at some, know, because your skin is the largest organ on your body, in your body, on your body. And

Just like you have a gut microbiome, you also have a skin microbiome and it's always living there. So when you have issues like lesions, acne, Like eczema, like redness, itchiness, flares, like there is, it's really funny. I mean, not funny. This is interesting. Something that we've learned recently is that, so in the case of eczema, for example, there's a genetic component.

that enables sort of like these flares, but the redness and itchiness is actually caused by, often caused by a bacteria. And often that bacteria is called S. aureus. And S. aureus, they actually create this mechanism where they cause you to itch. Because when you itch, what are you doing? You're scratching and you're allowing, you're moving that bacteria for it to proliferate. So,

Daniel Stillman (45:02)

Yeah, you hope it's spread. Yeah.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (45:06)

So there are many skin issues where there are different types of bacteria. And that's why antibiotics are widely prescribed in dermatology. And sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. And our hypothesis now is that if it's a bacterially rooted issue and you take an antibiotic and it doesn't work, either

your bacteria isn't killed by this broad spectrum antibiotic. Like it's just a different bacteria you didn't know about. Or you've taken antibiotics for so long, you've become resistant. And actually we have a test at Parallel. So we've developed this test that actually can test your antibiotic resistance, which is pretty interesting too. So we can actually kind of predict like how many times you've taken antibiotics in the past.

Daniel Stillman (45:53)

Yeah.

Yeah, is that is seems like the definition of precision to like really know what's going on at the like at the the skin microbiome level and to be able to do something about it to to to make a difference in that in that microbiome long term. Our time together has rapidly grown to an end, and I'm just wondering what what I have what we have not talked about that you think is important to talk about what I haven't asked you. What's keeping you from achieving your dreams?

Natalise Kalea Robinson (46:07)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Daniel Stillman (46:30)

Such a heavy question. But what should, what haven't we talked about that's important to talk about before we close off our time together?

Natalise Kalea Robinson (46:31)

You

I know.

I mean, I think we talked, we covered all the bases in terms of co-founder sort of relationships. I would say that it's been, I think that if you can find the right co-founder.

I think the hard times just become less hard. And so having those hard conversations in the beginning are actually well worth it, even though they can be awkward.

Daniel Stillman (47:06)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So I guess that would be one question I would ask you. It's like if you were giving some advice to a new co-founder pair and they were about to go to, you know, their own Esalen retreat, like what is the what are the questions that you would really want to make sure that they spend the most the most time with?

Natalise Kalea Robinson (47:27)

Yeah

I think it's understanding the non-negotiables, too. What are the things you absolutely need and want?

in terms of building the company or in terms of the type of company you want to build, but also in who you are and who you want to be. I think that's really important. And then I think there's, I think it's just being unafraid to have those.

Daniel Stillman (48:00)

Yeah.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (48:09)

really awkward. I think it's hard. Hard conversations are hard. I don't know. You know, it's like, you know, it's like, it's okay. Like be awkward because it'll save you like so much heartache, I think in the future.

Daniel Stillman (48:14)

Yeah.

so much heartache. What I hear in that, which is so interesting and important is that it's clear that you have to spend the time knowing yourself and knowing what your needs and wants are. And also be willing to be curious, really curious about those needs and wants of the other person. Like, so it's part of it is just in order to have a good co-founder relationship, it's clear to you've got to do the work to know yourself and also to put on your own oxygen mask.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (48:41)

Yeah.

Yeah, and one thing I'll say too, now that I'm thinking about it is being flexible to because you are going to evolve and like your co-founder is also going to evolve. And I think that's great, but like you just have to make sure you're evolving in the right way. And that means that your values are aligned, you know, at least in some way so that you're not, you know, kind of doing this like over time.

Daniel Stillman (49:07)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, how often do you feel like you and Nathan revisit these conversations to make sure that you're staying in sync in those ways?

Natalise Kalea Robinson (49:30)

Um, I would say at least, you know, twice a year, like really deep conversations, but I think in hard times, actually more often, like they just kind of come up more spontaneously just because we are going through something hard. So we'll just like check in like a few months ago, you know, we were having a really kind of, you know, just a moment in time, you know, and it was like, so how are you doing? You know, you okay?

You you still you still good like, you know, and then and then just being real about it. Yeah.

Daniel Stillman (50:01)

Right.

Yes.

Yeah. Really what we were talking about before we even started recording, the question we used to ask each other in the pandemic when you said, how are you doing? And you said it in a way, we all said it in a way that was not just like, hey, how you doing? Hey, good, good, good, good, good. OK, let's get to business. It was like, how are you really doing? Because I want to know because I'm guessing the answer to the question is like complicated. So like, I want to hear all of it.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (50:16)

Hmm.

Mm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Daniel Stillman (50:31)

creating space for that conversation as often as possible is clearly the lifeblood of a really powerful co-founder relationship, which I think you and Nathan really have. It's a beautiful thing. Yeah. That feels like a really great place for us to say thank you so much for your time and for making this conversation possible. If there's places on the internet that people should go to learn about the things, what are those places that they should go to learn about things?

Natalise Kalea Robinson (50:42)

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

Yeah. Sure. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, well, if anyone is interested in exploring Parallel Health and Precision Skin Health, you can find us at parallelhealth.io. And our hero offering is the MD03, which includes the testing and a custom phage.

Daniel Stillman (51:01)

Where, yep.

Whoa. That sounds so futuristic,

That's absolutely, absolutely nuts. Custom phage. I don't know why that phrase just hits me as like, it sounds like science fiction, but it's not. No, it's real.

Natalise Kalea Robinson (51:36)

No? I mean, you have two

million phages on you already right now, so...

Daniel Stillman (51:40)

Yeah, yeah, you just give

me the one that actually is gonna do the thing that I wanted to do. Absolutely mind blowing. Natalie, I really appreciate you making the time for this conversation. You are as always a delight to talk to. We covered a lot of wonderful, wonderful things. And so I'm really glad that we made the time for this conversation. Beautiful. Well, we'll call scene. I'll do the thing where I...

Natalise Kalea Robinson (51:43)

Yeah, exactly.

Thank you for having me. I did too.

The Inner Work of Leadership with Carole Robin, PhD

Hello there, conversation designers!

Every conversation - especially the hard ones - is an opportunity to learn more about yourself, to learn about another person and to learn about interpersonal dynamics - if you can set aside judgment and be open to curiosity. I’m SO excited to share this epic podcast conversation with the "queen of Touchy Feely" - Carole Robin, PhD. Carole taught the most popular elective at Stanford Graduate School of Business, Interpersonal Dynamics (mostly known affectionately as "Touchy Feely"!) for nearly 20 years and is co-author (with co-teacher David Bradford) of the excellent book Connect: Building Exceptional Relationships with Family, Friends and Colleagues.

She has a vast reserve of wisdom to share. We discuss the importance of navigating vulnerability and intentional connection as an essential leadership skill and unpack some of her most powerful principles of effective communication. We also talk about Carole’s conversations with her own personal AI, trained on all of her past writings and course notes…and how it helped her evolve how she tells her own story!

Building exceptional relationships is work that’s done one conversation at a time. Carole’s insights can help you unlock the potential in each conversation.

Links and Clips

CaroleRobinAI

Award winning book: Connect: Building Exceptional Relationships with Family, Friends and Colleagues

https://leadersintech.org

Clips:

Get a tattoo that says: Get Curious

https://youtube.com/shorts/us-pJ5t79V0

Anger is a secondary emotion

https://youtube.com/shorts/Kp2rJAN7r0g

Speak what’s true and kind

https://youtube.com/shorts/1YUm29gGEl8

Every Conversation is an opportunity to learn about Conversation Dynamics:

https://youtu.be/fDm9p4DK26s

The perils of trying to be a perfect leader

https://youtu.be/jvVK7A_oMqM

The Most Damaging Mindset: Withholding is Good

https://youtu.be/Nx4Pgq8gh_4

More about Carole

Carole Robin, PhD, is a distinguished educator and co-founder of Leaders in Tech. She served as the Dorothy J. King Lecturer in Leadership at Stanford Graduate School of Business, where she played a pivotal role in developing the acclaimed "Interpersonal Dynamics" course, popularly known as "Touchy Feely." Prior to her academic career, Carole was a partner in an international consulting firm and held a senior management position in a Fortune 500 company. During her extensive career in HR and leadership development, she accumulated valuable experience over several years, providing executive coaching and team-building to a wide range of organizations. Carole is celebrated for her contributions to leadership development, focusing on interpersonal skills that foster exceptional relationships in both professional and personal settings. Her work has influenced countless leaders and teams, helping them communicate more effectively and build robust, meaningful connections. In addition to her academic achievements, Carole co-authored the book Connect: Building Exceptional Relationships with Family, Friends, and Colleagues, encapsulating her life's mission to teach the art of human connection.

Key Moments

00:00 The Art of Greeting with Interpersonal Dynamics in mind

03:00 AI and Personal Narratives: The Evolution of Carole’s Story in collaboration with her personal AI

06:01 Leadership Lessons: Emotions in Business

09:06 Vulnerability vs. Strength: The Leadership Paradox

12:04 Transparency in Leadership: The Balance of Sharing

14:58 Strategic Authenticity: Navigating Vulnerability

18:01 True and Kind: The Principles of Effective Communication

20:50 The Importance of Self-Care for Leaders

21:59 Navigating Emotions in Leadership

23:49 Vulnerability and Authenticity in Leadership

30:07 Self-Management and Emotional Discipline

32:59 Curiosity as Leadership superpower

37:57 The Work of Building Relationships

Full AI Generated Transcript

Carole Robin (00:00)

Launch!

Daniel Stillman (00:02)

Well,

Carole, thank you so much. Welcome to the conversation factory once again, or for the first time officially. I'm really glad. It's good to see you.

Carole Robin (00:11)

Thank you. Thank you. It's nice to be seen.

Daniel Stillman (00:16)

I, you know, it's so funny because we were just talking about this before we even started about like the question, how are you and how big it is for some people. And I feel like it's this tiny little microcosm of interpersonal dynamics of deciding to, as I do, to say it's good to see you as opposed to asking a question that can even be harder to answer. Like what's lighting you up right now or what's, you know, there's lots of different ways that people can try to frame that question.

Carole Robin (00:42)

yeah.

Daniel Stillman (00:45)

I feel like my approach speaks the all the inarguable truth that it's hey, it's good to see you. What do you do when you say when you see people? How do you try to intentionally greet them?

Carole Robin (00:59)

Well, you my answer to that is going to be a little bit of a window on how I view interpersonal dynamics in general, which is there's no one size fits all. It depends on who the person is, what I know about them, whether it's the first time I've ever met them, whether we go back a long way. So, you know, I don't have a stock thing that I...

that I say. usually, I often when I'm when uncertain I will do what you did which is, Jesus it's nice to see you or it's very nice to meet you if I've never met somebody. I think in keeping with my general, what I teach frankly in my general philosophy is starting with a question asks the other person to be potentially to be vulnerable first.

Daniel Stillman (01:39)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Carole Robin (01:59)

And since I think that a willingness to be a little bit vulnerable in becoming more known and seen requires that I take the first step, then I might not start with a question. I might start with, know, in my case, you know, we were just talking about the fact that I've had long COVID for two and a half years. it's when people say to me, how are you? That's a complicated question to ask me.

Daniel Stillman (02:11)

Yeah.

Yeah.

It is.

Carole Robin (02:29)

And so what I much prefer is how are you right now? Or how are you today? If they're going to ask me a question. But the other thing that I often will do when I'm the initiator is I'll say, it's really lovely to see you. I'm so happy we're getting a chance to talk because I don't always have the energy these days to do it.

I might stop there. I might not give you my entire life story because you may or may not want to hear it. And then I take my cues from you based on how you respond.

Daniel Stillman (03:07)

Right? Yeah.

This is the you're putting the dynamics in the interpersonal dynamics like it's it's not putting your foot in the same river twice and and waiting to see where the energy is coming back from the other person.

Carole Robin (03:24)

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

exactly.

Daniel Stillman (03:28)

So one of the things I wanted to sort of officially start off with, and we covered some of this in our last conversation, but I wanted to get it on the record because it's so interesting the conversations that you've had and that I've had with your AI. And I think one of the things that people really love about talking to the bots is that they are always ready to talk to us. They are 100 % there. You can ask them a million questions and they're not going to go,

Carole Robin (03:37)

Yes.

Yeah.

Daniel Stillman (03:58)

They're not gonna sigh and be like, okay, like, let's take this one more angle. They'll be like, okay, sure. Let's keep let's keep going. And I thought the thing that was so interesting was the ways in which you evolved how you talk about your origin story, based on the AI that you've that is you all the things you've written and all the things you've you've said professionally.

Carole Robin (03:59)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel Stillman (04:26)

It rephrased

your sort of origin story and you're like, that's interesting. I kind of like that.

Carole Robin (04:33)

Yeah, what it did frankly is it made it much more succinct. So when people used to ask me, so how did you get started in this work or what's your origin story? I had a long meandering answer because the fact is it was a long meandering journey. And so now when somebody says, so how did you get started or what's your origin story?

Daniel Stillman (04:53)

That's how you experienced it going forward.

Carole Robin (05:02)

I'll say, well, do you want the full big, long meandering story or do you want the essence of the story? And that's what the AI gave me. The essence, an anecdote from that long meandering story that is the essence of the story. So I loved that, you know, that my own AI took my own work and essentially picked out

Daniel Stillman (05:19)

Yeah.

Hahaha!

Carole Robin (05:31)

something that was 100 % accurate. That's why I love my own AI as opposed to going to chat GPT and saying, how did Carole Robin get her start? Chat GPT will give you 60 % of the answer correctly. Carole Robin AI will give you 100 % of the story or 100 % of the answer because it's only ever been fed my work. So I don't know if you want to go into the details of what that story actually is.

Daniel Stillman (05:36)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Carole Robin (06:01)

as opposed to just talking about the fact that the AI was so helpful. Maybe everybody's like, so all right already, what's the origin story? People who are listening to this.

Daniel Stillman (06:01)

Sure, we can go. We don't just have to stay meta.

I know we can't ask them, but I will just

say it's so interesting that Aya just like killed your darling. So they're like, okay, well, here's the heart of the matter. And you were like, yeah, that's accurate. And that felt delightful to you, if I recall.

Carole Robin (06:20)

Yeah.

It did because it gave me an alternative to the long meandering story. So it doesn't replace it. Because there are sometimes people say, no, want the nitty gritty, the whole detail. But sometimes I can just start with what my AI gave me. And then somebody can say, then how did you get to that? And then where did you go from there? So they can always ask more questions.

Daniel Stillman (06:30)

Yes.

her.

Yes.

Carole Robin (06:53)

But

the bottom line is that I am not a career academic. I had four different careers before I ever ended up at Stanford teaching interpersonal dynamics. before I became known as the queen of touchy feely at Stanford. But way before that, I was running a 13 Western state region for an industrial automation company that I had gone to work for.

And when I'd gone to work for them, I was the first woman hired into a non-clerical job at the largest industrial automation company in the world. So I learned very quickly. So obviously, I'm old. That's not the case anymore. It's still regrettably not 50-50, but there are

Daniel Stillman (07:28)

Cheers.

No, it is not.

Carole Robin (07:49)

There

aren't any onlys the way that I was. And I learned very quickly that if I was going to succeed, there were rules to play by and that one of those rules was you leave your feelings in the parking lot. There is no place in business for feelings. So I was like, OK. I was young. It was my first job out of college. I was like, OK, I get it. So I

Daniel Stillman (08:05)

Yes.

Carole Robin (08:19)

I learned to play by that rule and I was also a quick study and I was pretty ambitious and so I kept getting promoted and now fast forward 10 years. And I am at an offsite with my team who is still all guys by the way. I did finally fix that but not at the time of this anecdote. And I got a little excited about what I thought we could do. I had this idea and I got excited. And I'm getting crickets.

One of my guys says, you, Carole, is that water in the corner of your eye? Are you gonna cry? And I said, what? And he said, are you human after all? Are you human after all? And when he said, are you human after all? I burst out crying. And I said, you don't think I'm effing human? I did use the full expletive, but I don't know who your audience is, so I won't offend anyone.

Daniel Stillman (09:06)

Hmm.

Carole Robin (09:20)

I don't think there's anything more important for us to talk about than that. And I tore up our agenda and we spent the next two days talking about who we were and why we were there and what we wanted and needed from each other. And to this day, I believe that was the day I became a leader. And to this day, I believe that was the day we became an unstoppable team. I know we became an unstoppable team. And

Daniel Stillman (09:40)

Yeah.

Carole Robin (09:41)

Even though it was many years before I ended up at the Stanford Graduate School of Business teaching interpersonal dynamics and the importance of emotions and feelings in business, that was really the start.

Daniel Stillman (09:50)

Yes.

So there's so many layers to the story. And the first thing is like, can tell that you, you know, as a seminal story, you don't tire of it because you see the truth in it. I think that's really beautiful.

Carole Robin (10:04)

Yeah,

I think that's a great accurate observation on your part.

Daniel Stillman (10:11)

Thank you. So last time we talked off the record, I was asking for some advice for one of my coaches who had gone through your course. And I think it's still in some ways struggling with one of the big questions that we were addressing. You know, there's there's I asked your AI about a list of questions that you don't get asked often enough. And they listed all these limiting beliefs and

You know, vulnerability equals weakness was number one on the list. Disclosure will be used against me is second on the list. Feedback will damage relationships. Fear of conflict. The heroic model of leadership, this idea that leaders have to look and be perfect. The other one that's not necessarily related to this particular incident, small annoyances aren't worth raising. Boy, that is so not true. But.

Carole Robin (11:05)

Exactly, limiting belief.

Daniel Stillman (11:08)

Is there anything that you think your AI man is that you're like, no, no, this is a incredibly damaging, limiting belief that I see leaders suffering from needlessly.

Carole Robin (11:19)

The more I withhold, the better off I'm going to be. The better off I'm going to be and the better off the relationship is going to be, the more I withhold. That's another limited belief.

Daniel Stillman (11:27)

Wow. Well,

because it's a classic negotiation tactic or idea that like, if I have informational leverage and I know something they don't, then it's good.

Carole Robin (11:39)

I mean, becomes a limited, it doesn't mean it's never true. It's a limiting belief because it does not apply to a lot of situations. And yet we blanket apply it.

Daniel Stillman (11:51)

Yeah. Yes. So I think that's a really interesting one because certainly in the getting to yes mindset, the more you share, the more possibility there is to find a win-win scenario. So I think, you know, there's an entire philosophy of negotiation that says the more transparency we have, the more likely we are to create a good outcome. So we can argue against that.

Carole Robin (12:04)

Exactly.

Right. And the opposite,

the opposite Daniel is also true, which is the closer I hold my cards, the closer you're going to hold yours. And then I'm going to hold mine closer, then you're going to hold yours closer. And pretty soon what we've created is something that we call progressive impoverishment. In academia, have fancy terms for simple concepts. Basically, we tell each other less and less. And then we're both playing with like no cards.

Daniel Stillman (12:35)

Yeah.

It's an inward spiral. Yeah. And again, this is the dynamics of interpersonal dynamics. Like if I lean back, you somehow sense that I'm leaning back and you just say, OK, well, that's the game now. The game is called Lean Back.

Carole Robin (12:46)

Exactly.

Thanks.

Well, and additionally, I feel more vulnerable. If you're not gonna tell me anything and I've told you something and you're not gonna reciprocate, I'm not gonna tell you more. I'm gonna be like, ooh, maybe I shouldn't have even said that.

Daniel Stillman (13:12)

Yeah, yeah. Now, I mean, it's shocking. I mean, this is even a rabbit hole. There are some, I think, young women today who don't identify as feminists because your generation solved so many issues that they kind of take for granted. that's, know, yeah, well, fair. I mean, it's but when we talked about this question of gender and vulnerability in leadership, we stock we talked to before and you talk a lot about.

Carole Robin (13:27)

so many issues we didn't solve.

Daniel Stillman (13:40)

vulnerability is a strength because of the breaking of that downward spiral. If someone leans forward, everyone else can lean forward, leaders can go first. But it needs to be appropriate for the context, both in the moment, but also presumably in the story of the arc of the relationship for women and other marginalized groups in leadership positions. They face pressure to conform to masculine ideals.

Carole Robin (13:54)

except

Yes.

Norms. Norms.

Daniel Stillman (14:09)

norms.

Yeah. And they get punished for being too masculine. They get punished for being too feminine. And how do they navigate that being like vulnerable and also authentic and credible?

can we unpack that a little bit? Because I think you were doing the right thing up until you realized it wasn't the right thing.

Carole Robin (14:31)

Right, right. So if we go back to my story, if I had burst out crying after I'd been there for six months, I would have never ended up running a 13 Western state $50 million business. So timing matters. Whether or not you've established your credibility matters. Context, it's all about context.

Daniel Stillman (14:44)

Yeah.

Yes.

Carole Robin (14:58)

You know, I'm glad you brought up the word appropriate because it's not bleh. I'm just going to tell you everything. It's, and, and I hesitate to use this word because it breaks it. It has the connotation that it's very transactional, which it's not, but it's strategic. And what I mean by that is.

And I think I shared this example with you. If I'm the VP of marketing and we've lost share for three months in a row and I stand up in front of the troops and I say, hey, we're crushing it, then I'm not going to be very credible because everybody knows we've lost share for three months in a row. If I stand up and say, so that's the third month we've lost share. have no idea why. I have no idea what to do about it. I'm not even sure I should be your VP of marketing. That might be authentic. That might be vulnerable.

It might be true and it's not appropriate.

Daniel Stillman (15:51)

Hmm.

Yes. Yeah.

Carole Robin (15:56)

There's a third alternative that a lot of people don't really stop to even consider because they see everything as I either tell you everything or I tell you nothing.

Daniel Stillman (16:04)

Mmm.

Carole Robin (16:05)

So I can stand up and say, so, not a secret that we've lost sheriff three months in a row. I really wish I could stand here and tell you I know exactly what's going on and what we should do about it. And I've got an action plan and just send you all off to do it. But I don't. And frankly, I've got some ideas. I bet you all have a bunch of ideas. I've never needed all of you more. Which of those three leaders is the leader you'd like to follow?

Daniel Stillman (16:36)

type C.

Carole Robin (16:36)

No,

I think that's part of the problem that people don't recognize that there are ways to show up with authentically, but appropriately.

Daniel Stillman (16:48)

Yeah, it's a fine, fine line because when I when I first started being curious about this idea of conversation design, which, you know, was sort of incepted into my head from our friend Lisa K Solomon. I remember doing a series of interviews with people like, what does it mean to you to design a conversation? And. There's this subtle play between strategic.

Carole Robin (16:51)

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Daniel Stillman (17:17)

and intentional and manipulative, right? Because, you know, we feel so much. Those of us who are aware of how much we feel, are, maybe we feel more, I'm not sure. I think there's some people who are just numb to what they feel or they feel like they're, you know, peering through a keyhole into the world of themselves. But choosing what to reveal and choosing how much to and to be strategic can feel like a type of inauthenticity.

Carole Robin (17:19)

Absolutely.

Daniel Stillman (17:46)

And I feel like that's a it's a self it's a it's a paradox somehow because it it is the right thing to do. But it is it can feel like I don't know. Yeah. Say more.

Carole Robin (17:54)

I

know what you're saying, but I think it's a trap to view it that way. I think we're back to all or nothing, thinking in a very polarized way. think choosing what you're going to share in that moment based on the context is just, in the context of business, it's just good business.

Daniel Stillman (18:01)

Yes.

Yes.

Carole Robin (18:24)

then it doesn't have to be manipulative. It depends on what your whole reason, what's your end goal? What are you trying to accomplish here? And what are you hoping is the result of the conversation? So if what you're hoping the result of the conversation is connection without losing credibility, as the example I just gave you.

Daniel Stillman (18:52)

Mm.

Carole Robin (18:53)

then you choose to say something like what I just expressed as an example. If your end goal is to be seen as credible at all costs and take absolutely no risk that anybody will see you as anything but, first of all, that's a pretty unrealistic goal. And second of all, you might stand up there and say, yeah, we don't have a problem. I've got this.

And then you've really trapped yourself into having, into being very lonely and very much carrying the entire weight of coming up with a solution, which is a trap a lot of leaders fall into. They don't admit mistakes. They don't admit that they don't know. They think somehow that's, but who wants to follow somebody who never admits they've made a mistake? Who never says, I actually don't know. I could use some help. That does not.

Daniel Stillman (19:26)

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Carole Robin (19:50)

build relationship. It might build adulation for a while, that is not relationship. And sooner or later it comes back to bite you.

Daniel Stillman (19:52)

Yeah, no, it does not.

You know, one of the principles my dad taught me about conversation design, broadly speaking, was this principle of true and kind. I don't know if you've come across this idea of we, the rule of speech was speak what's true and speak what's kind. Don't speak what's untrue and unkind. You know, that's right out, as Monty Python would say. And speaking what's true, what's kind but untrue is also not.

Carole Robin (20:21)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Daniel Stillman (20:32)

appropriate. What I'm hearing from you, and this is very, I don't think I'd really thought about the idea that the leader who's kind of threading the needle between speaking what's kind and true to the audience, but what is also kind and true to themselves.

Carole Robin (20:50)

themselves. Yes.

Daniel Stillman (20:53)

because they are a stakeholder lying to yourself or pretending not to feel what you're feeling and veiling is a kind of pent up, it's a dangerous road, is what sounds like what you're saying.

Carole Robin (21:04)

Right, and in fact,

as a leader, I care about my people and I do that to myself. Am I going to be in better shape to be a good leader for them or worse shaped to be a good leader to them? So it's out of care for them that I should take care of me as a leader.

Daniel Stillman (21:13)

Hmm, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So in a way, like what I'm seeing is that the strategic authenticity, which is such a strange term, but in a way it's finding the set point between honesty because that's actually nourishing for yourself and important for yourself to not live out of alignment with your own truth and also what's appropriate and true and kind for the other person. It's really.

Carole Robin (21:48)

And by the way, you're not

being dishonest in any way when you stand up and say, I wish I had all the answers. I don't have them all. I need you.

You're not, you're being perfectly honest.

Daniel Stillman (22:02)

Yeah, yeah.

This also speaks to like the need to process and prepare for these kinds of important conversations.

Carole Robin (22:16)

Would you like me to share a real anecdote of a fellow who was one of our fellows in our Leaders in Tech program who used this? This is a real example that happened very recently. This is the CEO of a startup. This is his third startup. And I'm not going to name any names, but he called...

Daniel Stillman (22:26)

Sure. I would... Yes, please. Wonderful.

Carole Robin (22:43)

You know, he called me not too long ago and said, Carole, I've just got to share this story with you. And I said, what happened? He said, we missed a major deadline. I found out that we were going to miss a major deadline for a software release on a Friday afternoon. And of course, on Monday mornings is the All Hands meeting where the CEO talks to All Hands. He said, and I spent all weekend furious at my team.

Just like, how could they let this happen? How could this be? How could I not have learned about this sooner? What the heck is going on? I can't trust them. Who are these people? I got myself more more worked up, more and more angry. He said, and then I remembered something I had learned from you at Leaders of Tech, which is that anger is often a secondary emotion. And what I mean by that is that beneath anger, there is often fear or hurt.

Daniel Stillman (23:42)

Yeah.

Carole Robin (23:43)

expressing fear and hurt feels a lot more vulnerable than expressing anger in business. We've been socialized to stay away from those yucky vulnerable feelings and anger is okay as long as you express it in a way that's appropriate. He said, so on Monday morning at the All Hands I said, so I want to tell you all that I spent all weekend furious at all of you.

Daniel Stillman (23:49)

Yeah.

Carole Robin (24:11)

ready to fire half of you. Just beside myself with the fact that we missed the software release. And then I remembered this thing that I learned at Leaders in TAC from this woman named Carole Robin that anger is a secondary emotion and I started thinking about what was really going on for me. And I realized that what I was was really scared that I was the only person who was seeing this as catastrophic as I was.

I was afraid and I was, and I felt uncertain on what to do about that. And so I decided to stand up here with all of you today and tell you that's what I'm feeling and ask for your help in solving this problem because I can't solve it by myself. And he said, I have never in all three startups,

And in all the all hands that I've ever done, and in all the problems we've ever addressed, I have never had a group of engineers rally so fast to solve a problem in my entire career.

So that's a very real, very timely, just happened example of what a CEO who decided, you know, I'm not going to stand up there and blast them all. Nobody's going to win doing that. I'm not going to stand up there and tell them it's not a problem. I'm going to admit that this is just, I can't carry the weight of this whole thing all by myself. Ask for help.

Daniel Stillman (25:38)

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's a really interesting moment because when I, you know, expressing the anger in a way that is not angry is a really delicate art.

Carole Robin (26:02)

yeah.

Daniel Stillman (26:04)

Because it could sound like a veiled threat.

Carole Robin (26:07)

Could, depends

on, you gotta listen to the whole conversation.

Daniel Stillman (26:12)

Correct. And I feel like, again, this is the emotional work that I've learned to do, you know, sitting in a men's group, which is, know, like another flavor of an encounter or a tea group, to be able to say to, for example, my wife, I'm really angry about this thing that happened. And to feel it in my body and to communicate it to her in such a way as that she can hear it. It is so much more tempting to say, I am furious with you.

you know, whatever expletives you'd want to add after that. And I can't believe, and it feels really good, but what it creates is terror and contraction and everyone else. And it's certainly not going to create what you want to create.

Carole Robin (26:55)

Well, the fact is that anger is a distancing emotion, period. No matter how you express it, it's going to distance the other person. And the more forcefully you express it, the more distant they're going to get.

Daniel Stillman (26:59)

Yeah.

So anger is a distancing emotion is can we add that to the Carolean principles? What was the principle that you were stating this particular leader was was leveraging that there's a there's usually an emotion behind.

Carole Robin (27:19)

Absolutely, absolutely.

that

anger is a secondary emotion and that if you are willing to go to a vulnerable place and really examine what your anger is about and lead with that it's probably going to be either fear or hurt and if it's one of those two those are connecting emotions

Daniel Stillman (27:32)

Yeah.

Yeah. You have to say, I'm afraid.

Carole Robin (27:52)

I'm afraid or I'm disappointed or I feel let down or I'm sad or I'm hurt. 99 % of the time, those are the things that lie just underneath that anger. But we've been socialized to stay away from saying those things. You know, was at a, I was at a workshop where I made this point as part of my teaching point. And after the workshop, a woman walked up to me.

Daniel Stillman (28:07)

Yeah.

Now, sorry, go ahead, please, sorry.

Carole Robin (28:22)

And she was literally crying. And she said, I just want to thank you because I suddenly understand my husband. I have never felt as clear about what's going on for him as I do in this moment.

Just the concept.

Daniel Stillman (28:44)

Well, anger is certainly something that men are taught is, you know, appropriate.

Carole Robin (28:49)

Right?

It's the only okay feeling.

Daniel Stillman (28:53)

Yeah. So the emotional metabolism, the rate of the emotional metabolism of this particular leader was about a weekend.

Because he said it took him about a weekend to do it.

Carole Robin (29:05)

Great.

Daniel Stillman (29:10)

Sometimes we don't have a weekend. Now, look, as a person who works as an executive coach, I believe that everyone needs a place to, you know, in the same way that an actor goes behind the stage and looks at their notes and their blocking. And you have to go behind the stage to refresh yourself, to regroup and processing with another person. And I've heard people do this with AI as well. Like, I am furious and angry. I mean, if you ask Chachi BT, you know, how do I win a power struggle? Chachi BT is

Carole Robin (29:27)

Regroup.

Daniel Stillman (29:39)

Program to be pro-social and will tell you that a power struggle can't be won and you should look for win-win scenarios But to do that from a place off from of authenticity is is non-tribulally challenging How do you suggest? mean look we can talk about the Corolean principles. I think they're lovely but the question of like it took this guy 48 hours or more to metabolize We sometimes have a moment

Carole Robin (29:51)

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Right? Well, personally, I think a lot of good leadership is about self-management.

And self-management requires discipline. And nine times out of 10, you don't have to respond in that instant. You can take a breath and you can say, you know what, I have a lot going on right now and I need a couple of minutes at least to really process what's going on and think about where I want to go next. And then you can say, you know what,

Daniel Stillman (30:31)

Hmm.

Carole Robin (30:43)

I'm really not in a great position to talk about this anymore right now. And I'm not avoiding it. In fact, give me an hour or give me a day. Set a time and a date when you assure the other person you're coming back to it so that you're not avoiding it. Let's schedule it right now, but right now is a bad time for us to try to continue to have this conversation. We've got too much going on that I really need.

Daniel Stillman (30:47)

Hmm.

Yeah.

Carole Robin (31:11)

Some people are very fast and are able to do it very fast. Give me a minute. And some people are like, give me an hour. And some people are like, give me a day.

Daniel Stillman (31:14)

Mm.

Yeah.

Carole Robin (31:23)

But recognizing that this is not the moment to knee-jerk response is all about self-management, and that's all about self-discipline.

Daniel Stillman (31:36)

And playing for time is like it's it's not a bad move if you can do it from a place of you know, if you can fake coolness for one second, you buy yourself a lot.

Carole Robin (31:46)

Well, and you can also ask for help. So I think this is something that, so let's say I'm having a, let's say that I'm in a relationship with you, you work for me. And I know that I have a tendency to get really worked up. So a little self-knowledge also goes a long way, goes with self-management. But I can say to you, you know, Daniel, I have a tendency to just,

Daniel Stillman (32:09)

Yes.

Carole Robin (32:16)

really react. And one of the things I want to make sure we agree to is when you see me really react and react in a really negative way in an instant, I want to give you permission to say, Carole, do you want to take a minute?

Daniel Stillman (32:38)

Mm.

Carole Robin (32:38)

And that's called trusting you and trusting me and trusting us.

Daniel Stillman (32:45)

It also, one of the principles that you emailed me, this vulnerability comes from strength principle. The willingness to be vulnerable comes from the strength to look at yourself and say, this is where I'm great. This is what I'm working on. And to share that both with yourself and to be honest about what kind of affordances you need to make things easier for you. to what I call like eliminating the out by letting everyone else know that you're working on it too.

Carole Robin (32:59)

Yep, that's right.

Thanks, Zach.

Daniel Stillman (33:14)

then it becomes

impossible to not work on it, which is really, really bold.

Carole Robin (33:17)

Yeah, I used to work with

a guy who used to call it public yourself.

Daniel Stillman (33:20)

Right. It's doxing yourself. It's like here I have no out anymore. It's all publiced. That's wonderful. Would you believe we only have five more minutes, which is gone, you know, the time goes quickly. What haven't we talked about that would be really important, really valuable, really important to talk about.

Carole Robin (33:48)

my gosh. Well, I wrote a whole book on this.

Daniel Stillman (33:50)

I know, and people should read it. Because, know, it's like I

listened to it as an audiobook and I was like, this is some good stuff, you know, I having written and thought a lot about this stuff. Yeah.

Carole Robin (33:59)

And I've spent like 35 years teaching it and it

was many quarters worth of material. So what have we not talked about? A lot.

Daniel Stillman (34:09)

I know.

Well, so if we're to get one tattoo, what would it say? If you what should we pick?

Carole Robin (34:14)

Get curious.

Get curious. So very, very few situations are not helped when they're going awry. They're with judgment. If you can learn, we're back to self-discipline and self-management. But when somebody does something that annoys the heck out of you, infuriates you, disappoints you, makes you feel awful,

Daniel Stillman (34:31)

Hmm.

Carole Robin (34:45)

try first getting curious. I wonder what that's about for them. Wonder what was going on for them that resulted in them doing what they did, taking the actions they took, behaving the way they did. Because the minute you do that, you allow for the possibility that there might be something going on for them that you don't know about.

Daniel Stillman (34:50)

Hmm.

Yes.

Yes. The flip side, by the way, one of your principles is every interaction is an opportunity to learn about yourself. What my mother would say is that anybody who provides me with that opportunity, I should be grateful for them. And in a way, getting curious about them, why am I so angry? Why does this make me angry? How long have I been getting angry about these things?

Carole Robin (35:18)

Exactly.

Yeah. Yep. Yep. Absolutely. In fact, principles

is incomplete. Every opportunity with another human being is an opportunity to learn about yourself, about them, and about interpersonal dynamics.

Daniel Stillman (35:36)

Hmm.

Yes.

Yeah, I missed, I didn't fully quote it, but yes, that's actually what you wrote to me. That's true.

Carole Robin (35:47)

Yeah,

yeah, to your point. so and imagine what the world would be like if that's how we went into the world in our with our interactions, seeing every single one of them as an opportunity to learn about ourselves, about the other person, and about what it takes to build relationship. I mean, we'd live in a very different world.

That's why I do what I do.

Daniel Stillman (36:18)

That would require us to be willing to slow down just a little bit more than I think many people feel comfortable doing.

Carole Robin (36:27)

Yeah, I don't disagree and I don't think you have to slow down nearly as much as you might think you have to. You might have to slow down more at the beginning while you're building. It's like building a muscle. You go to the gym the first time, you know, there's going to be a limit to how much weight you can lift the first time you go to the gym. But over time, you're to be able to lift more and more. So

Daniel Stillman (36:35)

Hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yes.

Carole Robin (36:56)

It's kind of similar. It's a practice and a discipline. No, no, go ahead. Go ahead.

Daniel Stillman (37:00)

Yeah, it is. And sorry, please finish that thought.

No, no, I haven't just it's your it is a discipline. It's work. But it is the but it is the work of of being in the world. Right. Like the other option is, I presume, being in curious about our own reactions and just playing them out ad infinitum and then being curious about other people and how we affect them and how they affect us. Like there are other options, but I don't think that they're very interesting. Certainly not to me.

Carole Robin (37:09)

Exit.

Well, they also lead to bad outcomes we don't necessarily want. So we also don't think through what's going to happen. You you do something that really infuriates me. I then respond with my own anger. Then you get angrier, then I get angrier, then pretty soon it escalates, then who won?

Daniel Stillman (37:35)

Yeah.

Habit.

Carole Robin (37:56)

So, you know, whoever has the loudest screaming voice, that does not build relationship.

Daniel Stillman (37:56)

Habit wins, yeah.

No, it doesn't.

Carole Robin (38:06)

But I want to get back to what you said about work. It is work. And in fact, one of the biggest battles we had when we wrote the book Connect was that our, our publisher wanted, you know, seven easy steps to better relationships. That's not how it works. We might've sold a million copies instead of 120,000, but that would have been disingenuous and untrue. That's not how it works.

Daniel Stillman (38:09)

Yeah.

Carole Robin (38:35)

It is work and unless you care enough to put in the effort, then what you're basically saying is you don't care about the quality of your relationships. That's what you're saying if you're not willing to take, make the effort.

Daniel Stillman (38:55)

Well, I think that is a that is the mic drop moment. We're at time and I know your time is precious. really, I really appreciate you spending some of some of that time with me and with with everyone who is who's listening. I will put into this into the show notes links to your to your book, your your A.I., which is delightful to talk to, not nearly as interesting as talking to you. Is there anything else you'd like me to make sure that I share with folks?

Carole Robin (39:24)

Well,

yeah. So, you know, after I left Stanford, I started an organization called Leaders in Tech. I co-founded it. And essentially, it offers programs that vary from four-day retreats, which are like the course I used to teach that the students called Touchy Feely. Touchy Feely on steroids, four days. You know, you get this immersion experience. And we have year-long programs for founders and CEOs.

And the four day retreats we offer for investors, offer them for founders and CEOs, we offer them for executives, we offer them for a much wider range of people. And if you really, really want to immerse yourself in learning how to do this, it's like learning to meditate. You can go to a meditation retreat and then really have a meditation practice that follows.

Daniel Stillman (40:16)

Mm-hmm.

Carole Robin (40:23)

You can get an app and try it over time and maybe get some traction with an app. So there are different modalities. I do want people to know that there is an opportunity to drop deep into it for four days. And by the way, then you really have a transformative moment, at least one, maybe more.

Daniel Stillman (40:47)

I would love to drink from that fire hose. That sounds really fun. That sounds really fun.

Carole Robin (40:51)

So leadersintech.org.

Daniel Stillman (40:54)

put that in there. Carole, thank you so much for your generosity. I know that we're at time. So thank you so very much.

Carole Robin (40:58)

Absolutely.

Thank you. It was a pleasure and very interesting chat. And I can't wait for it to come out.

Your Brain on Beautiful Conversations with Anjan Chatterjee

Hello there, conversation designers!

My guest today is Dr. Anjan Chatterjee, a renowned professor and founding director of the Penn Center for Neuroaesthetics. He's a leading expert on how our brains perceive beauty and art, and wrote an engaging book on this topic: “The Aesthetic Brain: How We Evolved to Desire Beauty and Enjoy Art"

Today, we're diving deep into the intersection of beauty, cutting-edge neuroscience and the art of conversation. We'll explore how our brains react to beautiful things and how this influences our interactions and dialogues. We'll uncover the hidden biases we have towards beauty, and how these can shape our perceptions in both positive and negative ways. One theme for this conversation could be “Old Brains in New Environments” - understanding how our brains evolved to help us survive in a very different kind of world from the one we live in today can help us adapt more effectively and work with AND against our evolved biases. Get ready to challenge your assumptions and expand your understanding of beauty's role in our lives.

Spoiler alert: beauty can be a double-edged sword. We'll discuss how making something more beautiful can enhance how others connect to it and appreciate it. But we'll also confront the darker side of this bias - our tendency to dismiss and undervalue things that we don't find beautiful. 

Resist the beauty bias and be patient with complexity

Simple and Elegant ideas equals right and good. Messy, Complex theories are wrong - but why? Dr. Chatterjee encourages us to resist our bias and be patient and curious - complexity can be embraced rather than simplified.

Slow Looking and Slow Conversations

Dr. Chatterjee's research shows that people spend an average of 27 seconds with a piece of art. His experiments show that when people are invited to slow down and spend more time with a piece of art, their experiences deepen and they find more beauty in the work.  Dr Chatterjee and I explore how the same can be true for dialogue - when we slow down to let everyone contribute and make sure we really hear everyone's thoughts and experiences we create more powerful and more beautiful connections.

Something that was an unexpected delight for me in this conversation was exploring how Dr. Chatterjee approaches leadership and cultivates psychological safety in his lab through inviting real connections and slow conversations. 

Make sure you check out the the PBS News Hour featuring Dr. Chatterjee’s work and the recent ‘Brains and Beauty’ exhibit which explored how the mind processes art and aesthetic experiences.

Embracing Slow Listening to Create Psychological Safety as a Leadership Skill

The Art of Slow Looking and Slow Listening with Dr Anjan Chatterjee

AI Summary

In this conversation, Daniel Stillman and Anjan Chatterjee explore the intersection of beauty, conversation, and the human brain. They discuss how our biological evolution has left us in a world that often feels disconnected from our innate ways of communicating. The dialogue delves into the aesthetic qualities of conversations, the biases we hold towards beauty, and how cultural representations influence our perceptions. They emphasize the importance of awareness in mitigating biases and the need for complexity in understanding beauty in dialogue.

Takeaways

  • In-person conversations are inherently easier due to our biological evolution.

  • Our brains are adapted to a different environment than we currently live in.

  • Beauty in conversation can be analyzed through the aesthetic triad: sensory, emotional, and knowledge aspects.

  • The beauty bias affects how we perceive and treat others, especially in science.

  • Cultural depictions often associate beauty with goodness and ugliness with evil.

  • Awareness of biases is the first step in mitigating their effects.

  • Complexity in ideas should be embraced rather than simplified.

  • Beautiful conversations require both exploration and exploitation of ideas.

  • Openness to experience and curiosity enhance the quality of conversations.

  • Designing conversations intentionally can lead to more beautiful interactions. Slowing down is essential in a fast-paced world.

Chapters

00:00 The Nature of In-Person Conversations
01:05 Old Brains in New Environments
03:00 Exploring Beauty in Dialogue
06:04 The Beauty Bias in Science
10:00 Cultural Depictions of Beauty and Evil
12:54 Awareness and Mitigating Bias
16:03 Complexity vs. Simplicity in Conversations
19:02 Creating Beautiful Conversations
25:14 The Importance of Slowing Down
27:59 Creating Meaningful Scientific Dialogue
32:58 Building Collaborative Relationships
38:51 Conversations with Our Environment
46:10 The Aesthetic of Conversation

More About Dr. Anjan Chatterjee

Anjan Chatterjee is a Professor of Neurology, Psychology, and Architecture and the founding Director of the Penn Center for Neuroaesthetics. He wrote The Aesthetic Brain: How We Evolved to Desire Beauty and Enjoy Art and co-edited Neuroethics in Practice: Mind, Medicine, and Society and The Roots of Cognitive Neuroscience: Behavioral Neurology and Neuropsychology. He has received the Norman Geschwind Prize in Behavioral and Cognitive Neurology and the Rudolph Arnheim Prize for contribution to Psychology and the Arts. He is a founding member of the Board of Governors of the Neuroethics Society, the past President of the International Association of Empirical Aesthetics, and the past President of the Behavioral and Cognitive Neurology Society. He currently serves on the Boards of The College of Physicians of Philadelphia and has served on the boards of Haverford College, the Norris Square Neighborhood Project and the Associated Services for the Blind and Visually Impaired.

Full AI Transcript

Daniel Stillman (00:00.945)

We're already in a beautiful conversation. The best part of every episode is obviously the technical, the technical check and the like. This is why I think in-person conversations are just, I mean, they're just easier because we've been doing them for millions and millions of years. We know how to do them. And here we are in a place where a lot can go wrong before we can actually communicate, which is shocking to me.

Anjan Chatterjee (00:08.084)

Right.

Anjan Chatterjee (00:20.589)

Yes.

Anjan Chatterjee (00:29.312)

Yeah, well, it might be a little bit like talking about the weather before you get into a conversation.

Daniel Stillman (00:36.082)

I think it's a little different because when you're talking about the weather, still, you're still, you're still in it. So I feel like, I mean, this is maybe a fundamental place to start, Anjan , is that like, we are biological beings in, these bodies that have been kind of the way they are for a long time, millions of years. And we're living in a very different world. Oh, wait, hold on a second.

Anjan Chatterjee (00:39.054)

You're there.

Anjan Chatterjee (00:46.421)

He

Daniel Stillman (01:05.937)

like my internet is, oh, looks like my internet tweaked out. So I'm going to ask my question again. We are, our bodies have been the same for millions of years and we live in a very, very different world. And I feel like there's a, there's a big gap between what we've evolved for and the ways we've evolved and the context that we're living in these days. Is that, is that an understatement?

Anjan Chatterjee (01:10.83)

Hmm

Anjan Chatterjee (01:31.982)

I think that is an accurate, perhaps understatement. I sometimes give talks that are titled, or our main theme is, an old brain trapped in a new environment. So it's exactly that idea of how our brains evolved to deal with a certain environment, which is very, different than how we find ourselves living right now.

Daniel Stillman (01:58.8)

Yeah, yeah. Now your work...

In your book, which you wrote almost a decade ago now if that's which is crazy Congratulations We can talk about how you're celebrating it later You you limit the conversation to specific areas where you can where the research supports being able to talk about the the brain and its relationship to aesthetics and beauty and

Anjan Chatterjee (02:08.406)

Yeah, it's been 10 years.

Daniel Stillman (02:32.271)

I'm wondering what you've learned in the last 10 years that can help us think about beauty around dialogue and conversations. Like, how do we think about what we know about the brain as you as a scientist and us as people with this thing that we're doing talking to each other and how beauty plays a role in that? Where could we possibly safely start?

Anjan Chatterjee (03:00.534)

I think we can start with some of the points I was making in that book and we've subsequently used as a framework to think about beauty. So that applies to the sorts of things I talk about in the book, beauty of people, beauty of places, beauty of things, in this case art, which turns out to be quite a mysterious kind of object.

But then using a broader framework to ask the question, does this apply to other things like conversation? And so just to lay that out, we have been for some time using this framework that we call the aesthetic triad. And that has three components broadly. One is the kind of

sensory motor aspects of whatever you're engaging with, the sensuality of it. The second has to do with the emotions that are evoked in the encounter. And the third has to do with the kind of knowledge and meaning that you both bring to it and that you get out of it. So if we try to map

Daniel Stillman (04:18.363)

Hmm.

Anjan Chatterjee (04:25.388)

that kind of thinking onto a conversation, I would think that there is a kind of rhythm and musicality to a conversation that would be akin to the sort of sensory qualities. You you could imagine with the kind of digital technology we have that you could keep all of the acoustic parameters and fuzz out the words so you can't.

you don't get the meaning, but you get a kind of get the sound and the musicality of a conversation and people might have opinions on was that a beautiful set of interactions or not. The emotions, which can be quite varied. But you know, most people would have an intuition if there's a sense of well being and a fondness in the conversation and those kinds of

Daniel Stillman (04:50.67)

Mm-hmm.

Daniel Stillman (05:00.007)

Yeah.

Anjan Chatterjee (05:18.83)

positive affects, you it doesn't mean that the whole conversation needs to be saccharine and just with no tension, but overall there is a kind of appeal and a pleasure out of the conversation. And then the semantics piece I would think would be where both people are bringing as they have to their own background.

Daniel Stillman (05:25.841)

Mmm.

Anjan Chatterjee (05:46.84)

to the conversation, but they're also getting something. There's an exchange there of ideas. There's an exchange of information. And so I think that's one way that you can think of how to apply this triad that we applied to art, we applied to everything, could also apply to conversations as well.

Daniel Stillman (06:04.241)

Yeah. And I really appreciated that you talked about beauty in relationship to mathematics. So, my background, my first degree is in physics. And I remember when someone came out with an article about like the 10 most beautiful experiments in the history of physics. And it's a really interesting idea to think about, you know, the double slit experiment as like, that's just beautiful. And so there's this idea of elegance and

Anjan Chatterjee (06:31.854)

Mm-hmm.

Daniel Stillman (06:32.23)

something that's parsimonious, like it's not there's nothing extraneous. There's a leanness to it. And. While it seems like it comes on the knowledge side of the aesthetic triangle, there's clearly also emotions that are that are triggered. And I feel like some of this has to do with what you talk around the the beauty bias. Like when we see beautiful people and beautiful things, we treat them differently.

than things that we think of as unbeautiful. And I imagine in science, could, that is just a messy proof. And like, I don't really know if I agree with your process, but it's an interesting idea. How do you think about this beauty bias? I mean, on one hand, I think we'd want to take advantage of it. On the other hand, we might want to try to mitigate it. How should we be thinking about that?

Anjan Chatterjee (07:06.648)

Yeah.

Anjan Chatterjee (07:29.708)

Yeah, so beauty is seductive.

for all that entails, both good and bad.

Daniel Stillman (07:36.762)

Hmm.

Anjan Chatterjee (07:44.258)

Sometimes when I talk about this, talk about our brains are very good at discriminating between objects. You can tell this is a face, this is a tree. With faces where most of us are especially expert, you have what is sometimes referred to as one trial learning. You can see a person once and then you remember them. There are not a lot of things you just need to experience once.

Daniel Stillman (08:05.093)

Mmm.

Anjan Chatterjee (08:11.094)

So we're very good at discriminating between objects. We are not good at discriminating between our values. And so, you know, if you think about the Greeks talked about beauty, truth and goodness as core human values, we're not very good at separating those. We tend to conflate those all the time. And so when it comes to science,

Ostensibly, we're all in search of truth of some kind. And there is a way in which beauty can intersect with that seeking of truth, seeking of knowledge. And that can both be, it can be used, as you say. So every scientist I know, when we publish papers and we're making our figures, we want to make sure our figures are beautiful, right?

Daniel Stillman (09:03.887)

Hmm.

Anjan Chatterjee (09:05.05)

And there's a kind of sense that if someone finds a figure attractive, that along with that will come a certain kind of acceptance of what the figure is supposed to be depicting. Now, physics to me is an interesting case because my understanding, and I'm not a physicist, but I've heard some of these conversations, is there's a bit of a controversy within physics, which is

is if a theory is beautiful and elegant, it must be true. And to me, it's not obvious that that's the case, right? It could be that the world is messier. And, you know, but we like something that is elegant and something that is beautiful. And so it becomes a matter of human psychology and not about the nature of the world outside of us that biases us to

Daniel Stillman (09:43.643)

Yeah.

Ha

Daniel Stillman (10:00.88)

Yeah.

Anjan Chatterjee (10:03.694)

prioritizing beautiful theories. It's just a possibility, but it's the kind of thing in another setting, which I think you alluded to, that we have fairly good evidence of how when we encounter people who are attractive, we tend to think they are good. And the converse of that, which is quite disturbing, and we've done a lot of work on this, is when people have facial anomalies. So things like

Daniel Stillman (10:22.001)

Yeah.

Anjan Chatterjee (10:33.108)

scars or burns or birth defects that there is an implicit bias where most people will think that they're less hardworking, less competent, less trustworthy and so on with clearly with no basis. And so that's a clear example where I think the conflation of beauty and in this case goodness rather than truth seems to be a common phenomena that we

we would like to reject as not having something to do with how the world actually is.

Daniel Stillman (11:09.777)

And so for someone who, I mean, is it really just about being aware of the bias? Is that the only way to mitigate it? It's on the side of the receiver, the experiencer, to just be aware that, and I've been aware of this, by the way, I know you talk about the peak shift rule and how there's so many things in our environment that are designed to take something that is already beautiful and attractive to us and just shove it way to the

Anjan Chatterjee (11:28.91)

Hehehe.

Daniel Stillman (11:39.184)

the edge of what wouldn't really occur in nature and it is deeply overstimulating to us. I'm already starting to have the dialogue with myself where I'm like, Dr. Chatterjee's told me about this. I'm aware that my brain's over-responding to something and I'm just gonna sort of co-regulate with myself on that. Is it really just being aware of our own bias in that sense?

Anjan Chatterjee (11:42.499)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Anjan Chatterjee (11:59.918)

I think being aware is certainly the first step. And the other thing I sometimes talk about is that this is the first reflexive reaction. But we have all of this brain machinery, our prefrontal cortex, and all of the other stuff that regulates our reactions that allows us to...

decide how to behave based on those actions. One of the things that we have gotten very interested in, particularly in this idea that people with facial anomalies are treated in such a way is, is that something that our culture then promotes? And this may go back to your peak shift idea. And we have been

Daniel Stillman (12:30.095)

Yeah.

Anjan Chatterjee (12:54.69)

finding and when I say this most people realize it that in our popular media particularly movies if you think about villains and how they're depicted in movies so the Bond villains the Marvel Universe you know any number of these that the villains are often depicted with facial disfigurements

And the idea behind that is that you don't have to develop a backstory. It's shown on the screen. The audience immediately understands the code. This is bad person. And we feed our kids this. So things like the Lion King, right? Scar, the only character that doesn't get a name. His name is his scar.

Daniel Stillman (13:33.296)

Yeah.

Daniel Stillman (13:40.817)

He also has a British accent that just telegraphs it I feel there's this whole thing about

Daniel Stillman (13:51.634)

I feel like a lot of bad, you know, the bad people have to have that. It's same thing in Star Wars. They all have these the all the people from the Empire have these like these British accents. I don't I'm not sure why But you're right and for Palpatine speaking of the Star Wars. It's like yes He becomes horribly disfigured when when you realize how evil he is 100 %

Anjan Chatterjee (14:01.528)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anjan Chatterjee (14:07.83)

Right. And Darth Vader, that's the same story, same back story. You even in the recent things, you know, I think about the recent productions of Dune.

the Harkonnen, the sort of evil aliens all have alopecia universalis, right? There are people around that have this condition where they don't have hair. And, you know, there's this kind of message being sent out that, you know, evil aliens and we're surrounded by this. And so we looked at this. It's a paper under review right now. Last 50 years of Hollywood movies and we looked at last 20 years of Bollywood movies to have another cultural comparison and use IMDb.

Daniel Stillman (14:26.917)

Yes.

Anjan Chatterjee (14:52.832)

so we're not hand selecting the images to look at how these facial anomalies are depicted among heroes and villains. And we see that for both, it's actually gone up in this, but the nature of the scars and villains tend to be larger. They tend to really cover kind of.

midline structures where our attention typically is orient to when we're looking at faces, as opposed to kind of often the corner of the forehead, you know, like Harry Potter or Humphrey Bogart, for example, had a little scar there. You know, that makes you look tough in a way. So, you know, so so there are those kinds of cultural biases, I think. So going back to your question is what can we do about it? Part of it is to be both individually aware, but

Daniel Stillman (15:23.845)

Mm-hmm.

Daniel Stillman (15:29.574)

Yeah.

Yeah

Anjan Chatterjee (15:45.742)

communally and socially aware. So there are these organizations, there's one in England that had a whole campaign called I Am Not Your Villain, where real people with facial anomalies do these ads with that as the campaign slogan, I Am Not Your Villain.

Daniel Stillman (16:03.759)

Yeah, it's so interesting. So when I think about the bias in science towards, you know, Occam's razor, we're going to the simplest explanation, the most elegant explanation is the most likely one. We have this bias towards an elegance and beauty, which tells us that it's true. mean, this is this is the poem. Truth, beauty is truth. Truth is beauty. That is all you need know on Earth.

Anjan Chatterjee (16:11.672)

Mm-hmm.

Anjan Chatterjee (16:21.784)

Mm-hmm.

Anjan Chatterjee (16:30.734)

you

Daniel Stillman (16:33.914)

It sounds like there's a there's there we need to remember to bring a willingness to wade through some complexity and to accept that complexity is not ugly. And complexity might be true in as much as simplicity could be true. And that's a real check on each one of us as we're gathering together and deliberating, having discussions, deciding things.

Anjan Chatterjee (16:46.638)

you

Daniel Stillman (17:03.195)

together that that that natural bias for for simplicity, just like to really look at it maybe once or twice more.

Anjan Chatterjee (17:12.482)

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Yeah, I think you're exactly right. One of the another idea that comes up a lot in aesthetics research is, is the notion of unity and diversity, right? That there is something unifies, trying to unify a whole bunch of diverse phenomena. And this can be in a painting, is there something that unifies all of this? These just

discrete elements. And I think that gets at both the simplifying looking for the unity, but at the same time, not discarding the complexity that it doesn't reduce to the center, right? It encompasses the center, but still reaches out to all of these peripheral, complicated, messy elements.

Daniel Stillman (17:52.817)

Hmm.

Daniel Stillman (18:02.821)

Yeah, so interesting. mean, I want to loop back around to where we were starting to point to is what are the elements of a of a beautiful conversation, especially when we're talking about the complexity of group dialogue and deliberation. We talked about the rhythm, the musicality that we can we can bring into our voices, right? We can all do work on our on our instrument. And I definitely have talked to some of my coaching clients about their awareness that they tend to speak in a monotone and

Anjan Chatterjee (18:25.474)

Thank

Daniel Stillman (18:32.658)

They don't create variety. there's things that we can do mechanically to to bring beauty into our voice. We've talked about being wary of of bias towards the elegance of ideas, but it also sounds like it's also a call to learn how to express our ideas, not just so that they literally sound beautiful, but that they are that they have beauty in terms of their emotional value or their

Anjan Chatterjee (18:36.28)

Sure.

Daniel Stillman (19:02.469)

their knowledge content. That is a much more subtle thing, what can you tell us about how to how to make people just we're going to harness the bias and just really use it, you know, obviously for good. How can we bring how can we harness what we know about the brain to to to bring more beauty into our group conversations, both in how we present and how we perceive?

Anjan Chatterjee (19:20.579)

Yeah.

Anjan Chatterjee (19:30.926)

So I was thinking about this in the context of conversations, knowing that we were going to have this conversation. there's an element, know, when we, at least in my world, when we think of aesthetics, we tend to think of the recipient of stimuli or information. You know, but the other side of that is the creator.

right, the person is creating something that is an aesthetic experience for the other person. And so in a conversation, it has this, to me, very interesting dynamic that we are both experience, are receivers of the beauty of the conversation and creating the conversation, right? We're playing both.

Daniel Stillman (20:23.323)

Yeah.

Anjan Chatterjee (20:26.542)

input and output into this thing that we're calling a conversation. And that creates to me a kind of interesting dynamic because you're switching back and forth. And so the sorts of questions that come up when we think about creativity, you know, they're the kind of constructs that are often talked about, which is, you know, there are exploration phases where you're loose.

Daniel Stillman (20:30.511)

Yeah.

Anjan Chatterjee (20:55.0)

people will talk about divergent thinking. You sort of meander around ideas and thoughts and then exploration is often contrasted with exploitation or divergent thinking with convergent thinking. At some point, you try to nail it down and this again is analogous to that complexity and then honing it down. So I think the...

Daniel Stillman (20:55.089)

Mm-hmm.

Anjan Chatterjee (21:23.758)

one version of a beautiful conversation and you do this all the time so I want to check my intuitions about this with your own experience and your own thoughts about this but one version is that there is this kind of exploration that happens but then it also at times has to come down to this exploitation of like

to converging on what that exploration delivers. And on the other side, there's a kind of openness to receiving this. And there are two other fundamental constructs that we think of that people bring to the table when they're having an aesthetic experience or being creative. One is this

Daniel Stillman (21:54.225)

Yeah.

Anjan Chatterjee (22:15.618)

personality construct that's called openness to experience, which is some people are just more open to experiences and other people tend to be quite more restrained, conservative, whatever word you want to use. But people who tend to be open to experience tend to be much more willing to engage with art, engage with ambiguity in art. You know, there's a kind of tolerance for ambiguity.

And the other is curiosity. think curiosity is so important as a motivator. And I think both those things also, my intuition are also true for our beautiful conversations. You have to be open to where it's going to go and you have to be curious. And does that comport with your experience? that?

Daniel Stillman (23:02.159)

Yeah, yes. Very much so. And so there's a few things I just want to loop back around and highlight. One is just and I think this is a very fundamental and interesting insight. A conversation is an aesthetic experience merely because our brains are wired to seek and enjoy and delight in beauty and to move away from and reject from it. And the way that I have. I don't know.

framed this in my own work, because I came from the design world, is that you are creating an experience and you can either design it intentionally or let it go according to habit. And I think there's a lot of ways that we gather that are quite outmoded that are not creating what we really want them to create. I just had a client.

vent about, you know, everyone going to an offsite and them showing a bunch of slides and not having enough time for having dinner together and talking and exploring. just, she's like, we could have done this on Zoom. We just watched a bunch of slides and just assaulted our brain with information. It was not a very beautiful experience. No one presumably was at the wheel saying, what would make this delightful?

What would make this aesthetic? What would make this excellent? And one thing that, sorry, sorry, go for it. No, please.

Anjan Chatterjee (24:28.11)

Time, I was going to say, you know, as I think when we talk, there are certain trigger words that get us and you mentioned time. But I meant trigger not in a negative sense that it sort of it triggers a whole set of thoughts. So you.

Daniel Stillman (24:35.249)

What's your trigger word? Yes.

Daniel Stillman (24:43.75)

Yes. Wait, can I guess what you're going to say? Because the PDF you just sent me, there was a very interesting thing about most people spend 27 seconds on a piece of art. And if you say you spend 15 minutes with it, you find it more beautiful. And I think with conversations, there's so much going on and for some reason a big unwillingness to slow down. The more we slow down, the more we can lavish and languish in the beauty of it, the more we can experience it.

Anjan Chatterjee (24:55.0)

That exactly.

Daniel Stillman (25:14.437)

How do you get people to slow down?

Anjan Chatterjee (25:15.896)

That's exactly where I was going. So I'm so glad that that happened.

Daniel Stillman (25:20.143)

We're right, I'm right with you. I'm glad you sent me that PDF this morning.

Anjan Chatterjee (25:23.67)

Yeah, so you know, we've been doing this, this idea of slow looking and you know, we live in such a manic transactional world, which, you know, I mean, it is going back to the current environment we're in. But this idea of slowing down and I mean, you can imagine this, how hard it is for

students, undergraduate students at my university, University of Pennsylvania, to say you're gonna have to look at this one thing for 15 minutes, and you can't pull out your phone. I mean, it's, it's excruciating. You know, we don't know how to slow down. And correct me if I'm wrong, I listened to some of your podcasts, just to kind of get a sense of how these go. And somewhere there was an offhanded comment. And I hope I have this right, that you're also a chef.

Daniel Stillman (26:00.945)

Scrutiating.

Daniel Stillman (26:20.901)

Well, I wouldn't say I'm a professional chef. I'm more of a food lover that I like to both make it and enjoy it, generally in large quantities for my friends.

Anjan Chatterjee (26:21.153)

is sec.

Anjan Chatterjee (26:29.624)

Okay.

Yeah, well, I like to make it and enjoy it as well. But the analogy there is perfect, right? We can we run around with fast food or I know some years ago, I had an Italian postdoc in my lab, and she was horrified to her soul that we had brown bag lunches where you take a brown bag, eat your lunch and listen to someone lecture. And this idea that food was not the center of attention.

Daniel Stillman (26:56.422)

Yeah.

Anjan Chatterjee (27:03.008)

at lunch. And I think the same idea of savor, like the notion of savoring, I think is really critical for aesthetic experiences for food or art or conversation. This idea that you slow down, you savor it, and you're not in it as a transition state to the next thing, right? Your mind isn't already oriented to the future while you're in the moment.

Daniel Stillman (27:09.905)

Yeah.

Daniel Stillman (27:26.417)

Mm.

Daniel Stillman (27:30.225)

Yes, very much so. know, slow looking is a really, I mean, because we have a slow food movement and I love this idea of a slow, slow looking movement. And it really strikes me that science is a slow looking movement of its own, that there is this long arc of history that is about being deliberative and absorbing lots of information, maybe being in conversation with the environment, which I'd love for us to make sure we talk about.

Anjan Chatterjee (27:36.546)

Mm-hmm.

Daniel Stillman (27:59.756)

How have you experienced in your long career as a scientist, what makes good scientific dialogue? Like how to actually architect that?

Anjan Chatterjee (28:10.904)

Yeah.

Anjan Chatterjee (28:15.416)

So I can tell you about my own, the way I run my lab and my, and then how that extends outward.

Daniel Stillman (28:19.184)

Hmm.

Anjan Chatterjee (28:26.502)

I have people at different levels of training and because, especially because of the nature of the work I do, I also have people who are not necessarily trained in psychology and neuroscience. I have an artist in residence, a senior art historian. I have an anthropologist who also does a bunch of our technical stuff like AI and VR, but comes from an anthropology background.

undergraduates have postdocs, right? So that's the kind of mix. And the question is, how do you orchestrate a group like that? A curious thing to me is I was at a meeting in Edinburgh a couple of years ago, where there were people from the humanities, people from the science. And one thing that came through was many people in the humanities, whether they're philosophers, or historians, tend to work in isolation.

Daniel Stillman (29:05.425)

Mmm.

Anjan Chatterjee (29:27.066)

They kind of do their thing, you know, then they go out and talk to people or give presentations. We always work in groups, you know, this if there's a myth of the kind of mad scientist in this basement working alone, I've never met that person, right? Everybody works in groups. And so the question is, how do you orchestrate a group? And this is where food analogies also become very useful. And I use them all the time, which is how can you orchestrate it so that the

Daniel Stillman (29:49.681)

you

Anjan Chatterjee (29:55.416)

whole is greater than some of its parts. And so the way we do it is, so for example, I four undergraduates. Before lab meeting, I meet with them individually for an hour. And it used to be that I would think, okay, what are the ideas that I want them to have and kind of have that hour session?

oriented to that. And I since have completely abandoned that, which is rather than that, that whatever I happen to be thinking about or working on is going to be the topic when they come in. So they don't know what the topic is, I don't know what the topic is. And we use that mostly to help me clarify my ideas, but also it's a way for me to

to engage them in the conversation because they're just openness. They're not shackled by all the things that I know, right? So they can ask the good questions and they can be my, you know, I often, you know, especially when we're talking about aesthetics, like what kids like these days and you know, how like fashion works for them, all of like everything is on the table, right? So that's kind of a way.

Daniel Stillman (31:01.177)

Yes.

Anjan Chatterjee (31:18.562)

to have a conversation where it's not me teaching at them, but having a conversation in which I think both sides, in this case the students and I, we're both getting something out of this from each other. Then we move into my lab meeting and one of the things I've done for years is that everybody gives a report, but we start from the most junior person up.

Daniel Stillman (31:48.209)

Hmm.

Anjan Chatterjee (31:48.502)

And the idea is that the most junior, you know, because otherwise you have someone who loves to hear them talk or themselves talk or someone who is a senior person, intimidates everybody. Start with the most junior person. When they're on, they have the table. Everybody's attention is on them. I don't allow phones, laptops, unless you're looking up a specific paper that had to do with what we're talking about. So you can't have your devices there.

Daniel Stillman (31:59.847)

Mmm.

Anjan Chatterjee (32:17.122)

The other piece that I've learned to do over the years is that people will do their work updates and then give a little piece of anything they wish to share about their personal life every week. It can be, went on this date, I went to this restaurant. It can be something like something serious that this person I really care about is very sick. It doesn't matter. You know, I don't prescribe what they say. I don't even prescribe that they do say something personal, but everybody's invited to do so and it's just become normative.

So what happens in this dynamic is that everybody has their turn. Everybody hears about everybody else. It humanizes everybody because you know something about their world. And that provides a vehicle in which then when we actually get down to talking about projects, there is a sort of shared sensibility that just is, it's sort of like.

Daniel Stillman (32:58.427)

Yes.

Anjan Chatterjee (33:15.598)

I don't know, again, use food analogy has always come up. It's like a good roux. You've worked on the roux and then it's like everything else really comes out. And so that's an example, I think, of why working in a group in science internally is very helpful. And one of our mantras is the question is always the question. You have to figure out what the question is you want to ask before you can do anything. And that can take a while.

Daniel Stillman (33:22.235)

Mm.

Daniel Stillman (33:45.414)

Yes.

Anjan Chatterjee (33:45.538)

right? Like, what is the question? Why if we're going to invest some time and energy, that's going to take weeks, months, maybe years, let's make sure let's not rush the first step, which is what is the question. And that's really critical. And so then that sensibility extends outside with my collaborations, have collaborations all over the world. And for me, unnecessary

but perhaps not sufficient, but a necessary condition is I have to like the people. And I don't want a transactional relationship. Like you have the skill that I need. I mean, sometimes you have to do that, but really I want to like the person. And my criteria for people I hired in my lab, people who I collaborate with is I want to feel like you're a person.

Daniel Stillman (34:19.504)

Mm.

Anjan Chatterjee (34:40.35)

I can go out and have a beer with or a cup of coffee if you don't drink whatever but like but have a social thing that has nothing to do with our science and if I can do that then I'm willing to play in the science sandbox with you.

Daniel Stillman (34:43.697)

Hmm.

Daniel Stillman (34:54.098)

Yeah, well, that makes a lot of sense. mean, that's a really beautiful outline. Clearly slow conversation and intentional turn taking, I think is so important. But you said something right at the end, which I think speaks to a really interesting point that you discuss in your book, which is liking and wanting and how they can be different. And it seems like in a way that in order to collaborate with people, we need to see them as

Anjan Chatterjee (35:13.164)

Yeah. Yeah.

Daniel Stillman (35:22.853)

you see a skill of theirs as beautiful, needed, wanted, desirable, aesthetic. There's an aesthetic experience where you need to respect and like this person, either because of presumably where they exist on the triangle. Some of the emotions that they evoke in you, some of the knowledge or ideas that they bring to the table, there needs to be an aesthetic harmony in order to collaborate.

Anjan Chatterjee (35:30.594)

Mm-hmm

Daniel Stillman (35:53.349)

with someone.

Anjan Chatterjee (35:53.454)

I agree. I think and I tell my students this all the time when they're kind of thinking about their career of how, you know, if having the long view that collaborations and friendships are going to go on for a while.

And it's worth investing in the same way that you invest on what's the question investing in people and people who you think are worth the investment and I and that's the kind of sense in which I think Conversations in small groups and larger groups and conversation with the larger scientific community makes for better science You know when you have that kind of

Daniel Stillman (36:18.661)

Yes.

Daniel Stillman (36:36.721)

Hmm.

Anjan Chatterjee (36:40.568)

there's a kind of safety, and this is, I think, also important. Once you have the safety built in because you like them and you have this relationship and everybody is recognized as a real human, not just a data point, then you can be critical of ideas without someone feeling threatened.

Daniel Stillman (37:02.309)

Yes.

Anjan Chatterjee (37:02.35)

And that's absolutely critical. You can't be a softie on the merits of the experiment and the merits of the ideas. That has to really be vetted as strongly as you can, but the way that can be done is that you already feel safe with the other people.

Daniel Stillman (37:28.901)

Yes. And you have to build that foundation. That's very similar, formulation in a way that the folks from the Harvard negotiation project, talk about being hard on the problem and, soft on the people. And often we feel like we have to be soft on the people. but, but that's if you haven't built the connective tissue to be able to be hard on the problem and have that trust and connective tissue already established.

Anjan Chatterjee (37:50.925)

right.

Anjan Chatterjee (37:54.499)

Yeah.

Daniel Stillman (37:57.99)

And there's another piece that you talked about, is seeing beauty in the long view, understanding that this is a process and that it's going to it's going to take time and seeing value in the denouement in a way, seeing slow looking as as beautiful in and of itself in a way. Because it is an aesthetic. I talk about it as like, you taking a bath.

Anjan Chatterjee (37:58.2)

Yeah.

Anjan Chatterjee (38:07.149)

Yeah.

Anjan Chatterjee (38:15.916)

Yeah. Yeah.

Anjan Chatterjee (38:21.548)

Mm-hmm.

Daniel Stillman (38:23.057)

really luxuriating in it. It is shocking to me, by the way, that time has gone rather fast. One of the things I really appreciated when I reached out to you was, and this is something I kind of noticed in a conversation is whether there's an uptake. You know, there's there's a sense of like a one sided conversation versus both people pushing and pulling. It's a dance. There's dynamic tension. And I really appreciated

emails that came from you where you're like what about group conversations what about conversations with the environment all of these different things that you started to spark in your own brain around conversation we only have a little bit of time left like what should we talk about that we have not talked about what's important to make sure that this feels like the most beautiful conversation we could have had

Anjan Chatterjee (39:11.458)

Well, actually, what I feel bad about is in the balance, and I know that you're the podcast host on the guest, but I would want be wanting to ask you all these questions as well. So, so there's an imbalance that I am a little uncomfortable with. mean,

Daniel Stillman (39:18.363)

Yes.

Daniel Stillman (39:27.727)

I know I'm leading the the the I do I do swing dancing and we talk about how the leaders is the frame and the followers the picture. In this case, I am I'm leading you and we can have another I'd be very happy to have another conversation with you or we're equal partners. But for right now, I'm just going to squeeze all of the brain juice. I can't out of it.

Anjan Chatterjee (39:45.507)

Yeah.

Anjan Chatterjee (39:49.152)

All right. So fair enough. I think this you alluded to, I think it's worth the least touching on the idea that we also have a conversation with our environment. And I it makes it maybe a little abstract, but maybe not. So one of the things that became more explicit

during the early part of the pandemic, especially the lockdown period, which as separately, it blows my mind that perhaps for the first time in human history, everybody in the world had a version of this shared experience, right? I can't think of any other

Daniel Stillman (40:43.43)

Yes.

Anjan Chatterjee (40:46.894)

whether it's the plague in different parts of Europe or things that have happened in Asia, volcanoes, hurricanes, But everybody was stopped short with this. And the cultural differences in how it expressed itself, all so on and so forth, but it was a shared experience. And it already feels like that moment of openness is closing rapidly if it hasn't closed already, like we've forgotten about it. We've suppressed it.

Daniel Stillman (41:16.785)

Yeah, it was one of the rare moments in history where anyone I would talk to, I really wanted to know, how are you? It wasn't like, hey, how's it going? Let's get to, it was like, how the hell are you? Cause I don't know, cause you're going through, I just sort of, I assume everyone's actually kind of going through some stuff anyway now, but really then you're like, how are you? We really wanted to know. It was a very different vibe.

Anjan Chatterjee (41:17.174)

So.

Anjan Chatterjee (41:22.989)

Yeah.

Anjan Chatterjee (41:33.164)

Yeah.

Anjan Chatterjee (41:36.515)

Yeah.

very different vibe. So the other piece about that was it made us very explicitly aware of our environment in a way that we typically don't, again, in that kind of transactional fast moving. So it's almost like a slow living of, you know, all of sudden, you know, I've had that painting on my wall for, you know, 30 years and I don't even notice it anymore, right? You know, I, during the time,

you know, what you can't see is to my right, there is a window and we have a little courtyard. I live in Center City, Philadelphia, so it's a very urban area. You know, I got like, you know, like many people, I got a bunch of plants and I also got a bird feeder, right? So I'm looking at this stuff, right? So this idea that we are in conversation with our environment all the time and going back to some...

say something we started before is that if we evolved our brains adapted to a certain version of nature over the 1.8 million years of the Pleistocene, it's only been in the last 10, maybe 12,000 years that we've all been sequestered in these indoor places and that this has increasingly got us more more removed from nature. know, where hermetically sealed environments, you

earlier in our conversation, there was a buzz that was the heater going on, right? That's already saying, no, keep the real world out there. Incandescent lights, all of a we're no longer tied to diurnal rhythms. 1872, I think, is when Thomas Edison first turned on the first light bulb in Menlo Park. There is a way in which that disrupted us. so...

Daniel Stillman (43:19.856)

Mmm.

Anjan Chatterjee (43:30.828)

All these questions now that emerge out of things like sustainability, the environmental concerns, I think all in a way can be framed as a disruption in the conversation we would be having with our environment. And so that was the piece and how architecture either helps or hurts in that. you've talked about design. How do you design?

Daniel Stillman (43:51.014)

Yes.

Daniel Stillman (43:55.639)

yeah.

Anjan Chatterjee (44:00.162)

your environment, and this is something I'm very preoccupied by right now, how do you design your environment, the built environment in a way that honors that conversation with the environment?

Daniel Stillman (44:13.241)

It's a really interesting point, and I'll link in the show notes. Many episodes ago, I interviewed Tyson Yonkaporta, who is an Aboriginal Australian, and he wrote a book called Sand Talk and really pointing to the fact that there's this, in science, there's this idea of embodied cognition. isn't this interesting? We think in spaces. And he was saying, yes, we've been sitting in circles.

Anjan Chatterjee (44:34.862)

Mm-hmm.

Daniel Stillman (44:41.882)

drawing on the sand together for 1.8 million years. We've had conversations in places and spaces where we can point and gesture and use that as a way of describing what we where we want to go what we want to do. I personally believe that a conversation with a whiteboard is a it's a multimodal you know six dimensional conversation instead of

Anjan Chatterjee (44:47.875)

Mm-hmm.

Daniel Stillman (45:11.985)

what another guest, Dave Gray, we would call an air conversation. You know, this is just an air conversation. And air is not, does not have much of a memory. The environment 100 % has a lot to do with what conversation is even possible. God, I've been in so many offices where you're not even allowed to put anything on the walls. And I feel hampered. It's like I can't use one of my hands because it's,

Anjan Chatterjee (45:19.617)

Thank

Anjan Chatterjee (45:28.056)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Daniel Stillman (45:41.414)

Because embodied cognition, think, is such an important component of how we can think together with multiple people is to use all the things around us. This rock represents this and this represents that. And to be able to use that as a dialogical aid, think, is so important. So I think your intuition and your experience is 100 % correct in the same way that having phones and laptops in the conversation.

Creates an environment that is irreparably non aesthetic In the sense of being able to actually host a beautiful conversation because nobody can focus

Anjan Chatterjee (46:18.89)

And, you know, just not to put too fine a point on this, as has been mentioned by the previous Surgeon General and others, we're an epidemic of loneliness. you know, loneliness is at least one version of this is the absence of good conversation.

Daniel Stillman (46:36.796)

Yeah. Well, I appreciate so much you taking the time out of your work to have what I hope is a good conversation with me, maybe even a beautiful one. And if people would like to learn more about your work, I definitely would direct them to reading your book. The Aesthetic Brain will link to that. Is there any other place where they should go to stay in the loop with your work?

Anjan Chatterjee (46:46.828)

Maybe even a beautiful one.

Anjan Chatterjee (47:06.924)

Yeah, our website, you know, we often we have updates of what's going on. We have little videos of things there. That's a good place. I have both a LinkedIn and a Blue Sky account where I mostly post sort of updates of things we've been doing.

So for example this interview when it comes out will show up there, but you know other things as well, so

Daniel Stillman (47:35.323)

Wonderful. And is the year in the review there on the website? I can put a link to that if it is.

Anjan Chatterjee (47:40.334)

I placed it on, I just last week put it on LinkedIn. Yes.

Daniel Stillman (47:46.469)

wonderful, because it's great stuff. It's like a gloss almost on everything around your work. I'm just going to thank you, officially thank you for coming on the show, and I'm really grateful for your time. It has been a beautiful conversation. For me, you've been very generous. So thank you very much.

Anjan Chatterjee (48:07.182)

Well, I very much appreciate your inviting me. And yeah, this was great.

Daniel Stillman (48:12.954)

Wonderful. Well, that means we can call scene And I can pause the conversation