For almost two decades, Amy Jen Su has partnered with investment professionals, CEOs, and executives to sustain and increase their leadership effectiveness as they drive organizational change and transformation. She is the author of the Harvard Business Review Press book, The Leader You Want to Be: Five Essential Principles to Bringing Out Your Best Self – Every Day.
Amy and I dive deep on leadership, and how who you are as a person affects the organization you're leading, for better or worse. This means that self-leadership and mindfulness are essential for leaders, and we unpack Amy’s approaches to these dimensions of leadership.
This episode is a must-listen for anyone who wants to strengthen their center and be a more balanced, more effective leader. And as Amy says in the opening quote, there is no one way for everyone to lead...we each need to find our own north star and our own thread to follow in the story of our own leadership development.
Cultivating Our Inner Conversation
One insight that I was so glad to have Amy “yes and '' is my feeling about the deep importance of our inner conversation - the parts of ourselves that cheer and check us. As Amy says,
“some of these voices no longer serve us, and in fact disempower us”
She suggests that we stay updated with our current selves, and know when it's time to let go of voices that no longer serve us.
Cultivating an outer conversation: Finding mentors and supporters
Amy advises us to consider:
“who are (your) cheerleaders and safe harbors (and how can you build) a network of support that can also live life with us and ride alongside us as leaders and as people.”
She suggests that you find and recruit folks like the
“sausage maker, the accountability buddy, the mirror, the cheerleader, the safe harbor, the helicopter”
People who you feel safe sharing the nitty-gritty with, folks who keep you accountable to your goals, people who help you see yourself as you are, who cheer you on, who can be a safe harbor, and people who can pull you out of the dumps when you are down.
It’s hard to find that all in one person. For many, their spouses serve too many of those roles! Finding a coach like Amy or myself can help you maintain a regular cadence of attention to these modes of reflection and growth and get to your North Star...and find your next star, too.
Mindfulness is Key. But it’s not about feeling good.
Amy and I talk about how mindfulness is very popular right now, but often not considered in its full context. Amy points out that:
“I think one of the misnomers about mindfulness though is that somehow if you start meditating or having a mindfulness practice you're going to feel these wonderful happiness mood states all the time... It's getting to the truth, whether that's a painful emotion or a positive emotion, you're tuning into what reality is... Mindfulness... with razor clarity, (help you) actually come to reality.”
LINKS, QUOTES, NOTES AND RESOURCES
Amy Jen’s Books:
Own the Room
The Leader You Want to Be
Thich Nhat Hanh: "How do I stay in the present moment when it feels unbearable?"
You do not have to be good.
You do not have to walk on your knees
for a hundred miles through the desert repenting.
You only have to let the soft animal of your body
love what it loves.
Mentioned Episodes:
Cameron Yarbrough on Scaling Leadership Development
Eve Rodsky on A Game Changing Solution to Gender Inequality
Key Quotes:
Minute 4
I think we all underestimate the wisdom that does exist in our experiences to date, within our bodies, within our knowledge base, and certainly there's great wisdom in those who work with us, which is why 360 feedback and other forms of feedback can be powerful and sort of the combination of both things, the willingness to hold up the mirror to ourselves and to ask others to hold up the mirror can be the catalyst for propelling us into greater forms of expansion and growth.
Minute 6
I'm stunned by some of the folks that I work with who are making a phenomenal difference in their organizations, for their families and for their communities, and how hard they are on themselves and that when we start a new role or we find ourselves in change, somehow we assume the clock goes back to zero. It absolutely doesn't. So there's something in Mary Oliver's work and I think that poem in particular that reminds us of the importance of self compassion, and it's amazing how we speak to ourselves in ways we would never speak to a friend or a loved one. So I think that poem reminds us to say, in the way that you would say to your best friend, with kindness, walking them out of a tough day, why don't we speak to ourselves that way?
Minute 8
So in part of all this conversation we're having around how do you stay updated to yourself, it's also knowing when it's time to let go of voices that no longer serve us, and in fact disempower us, and then how do we along the way, in coming to understand who you are today, who are the cheerleaders and safe harbors and the really beautiful network of support that can also live life with us and ride alongside us as leaders and as people.
Minute 12
I think often when we feel that we're in the face of judgment, we hold ourselves back or we don't feel that we can speak freely, so being able to be witness to another person's wonderful process, to sit in the presence of another person's thoughts and brainstorms and creative expression that's flowing through them, I know from myself personally, and I wonder if you feel this way, it just feels like the greatest honor.
Minute 18
So even in Own The Room, as you mentioned, my first book, the inherent paradox we were exploring was how do you have a voice for yourself and voice for others, and that the most effective leaders both have cultivated an ability to bring their own voice, opinion, point of view, decision making, to the table, as much as they've cultivated the ability and the access to know when it's time to listen and to ask questions and to hold multiple perspectives, and that being in the zone is kind of this middle path of that in a conversation we're being fluid to both those things and when we're too anchored in just one, if I was a leader only having a voice for myself, you might experience me as a bull in the china shop, or unwilling to listen or interrupting, as much as if I'm only listening and asking questions, someone might question my leadership ability.
Minute 22
In that case, as a leader, let's say suddenly now your role does demand that you do more all hands, and it's not your favorite thing. So just recognizing, my hope, number one, is that you're in a role that speaks to 80% of what comes natural or to your strengths but there's always going to be 20% of any role, I think, that forces us to oscillate out of our comfort zone, but it's an important part of the mandate. So in the case of the leader who may not love doing an all hands, perhaps we would tap into the values they feel towards making sure that they're transparent with their organization, that they do care about employee engagement, and that their communications from a one to many perspective is really critical. So for that leader, helping them get prepared for that moment so that they can increase their comfort, and then making sure maybe it's after the all hands that they block an hour after the event to make sure they grab a little time back to themselves to recharge the battery.
Minute 24
I think the faulty assumption that we, for high stakes situations or conversations, that winging it is the way to go. I think there's a point where I often will say to a leader, "Hey, your job now requires a different influence where the percentage of time you once spent on the slides versus the percentage of time you are now going to allocate to prepare for delivery has to change. "
Minute 25
I often advise my clients, "Hey at the start of your week, take a look at your Outlook Calendar Monday through Friday, it's not that you're going to be able to prep for every meeting, it's not realistic, but pick the two that really make a difference to priorities, or could really make a difference to employee morale or your team's morale. Or it's a really difficult conversation, perhaps it's a feedback conversation and you want to both get your message across but honor the dignity of the other person, those do require some preparation time and be thoughtful and, to the word you used, Daniel, planful, mindful, intentional.
Minute 26
Mindfulness is important to me, I know it's a popular item and topic these days, for good reason. Everything we're talking about here, the tuning into oneself, the bringing the head and the body back together in any moment, the head heart body, and saying, "Wait, what's actually in front of me and going on?" I think one of the misnomers about mindfulness though is that somehow if you start meditating or having a mindfulness practice you're going to feel these wonderful happiness mood states all the time.
And in fact, I have found it's the opposite. It's getting to the truth, whether that's a painful emotion or a positive emotion, you're tuning into what really reality is so that then you could be making better choices or creating the action plan necessary. So oftentimes we either want to run away from something, or run towards something. Mindfulness I think brings us to, with razor clarity, actually let's come to reality.
Minute 31
We all have results we need to deliver and priorities to make and teams to lead and so in the everyday of what we do of our doing, it's important to say how do I optimize my productivity and my efficiency as much as it is, to your point, around the conversation you just had with that CEO, where does doing and being come together, and again, who we are as people and the motivations that guide our actions can have tremendous impact on our organizations and culture.
Minute 32
In higher orders of leadership, so much of the job becomes you're the person to help paint the picture, to help connect people to why should they care? How does their day to day job connect to something bigger than all of us? And I think the best leaders, especially at the CEO level are able to do that.
Minute 38
I think we don't own ourselves unapologetically, both for what we know and what we don't know. And there's actually, as you were just describing that set of leaders, there's tremendous confidence that telegraphs when we can say, "Hey, you know what, Daniel, that's a great question, but I actually don't know."
MORE ABOUT AMY JEN
For almost two decades, Amy Jen Su has partnered with investment professionals, CEOs, and executives to sustain and increase their leadership effectiveness as they drive organizational change and transformation. She is the author of the Harvard Business Review Press book, The Leader You Want to Be: Five Essential Principles to Bringing Out Your Best Self – Every Day (2019), which draws on her extensive experience serving industries such as private equity, financial services, biotechnology, software, consumer, and media. She is also currently a Board Member of SRS Distribution Inc., a portfolio company of Leonard Green & Partners and Berkshire Partners. Amy has been a frequent contributor to Harvard Business Review online and has written for publications including Huffington Post and Leader to Leader magazine. She is also co-author of the Washington Post bestseller Own the Room: Discover Your Signature Voice to Master Your Leadership Presence (HBR Press, 2013) with Muriel Maignan Wilkins. Her work and thinking have been featured in media outlets including the Wall Street Journal, Fast Company, Inc., Forbes, and Marketwatch. Previously, Amy served as a management consultant for Booz Allen & Hamilton where she advised senior executives of consumer product companies on growth strategies. She was also a strategic planner for Taco Bell Corp helping to launch Taco Bell into non-traditional points of distribution. Amy holds an MBA from Harvard Business School and BA in Psychology from Stanford University, graduating from both with honors and distinctions. Her additional certifications and background in Integral coaching, yoga, and the Eastern philosophies provide for a unique high impact, whole-person approach to executive development.
FULL TRANSCRIPT
Daniel Stillman:
All right.
Amy Jen Su:
We'll take our deep breath.
Daniel Stillman:
We'll take a deep breath, get centered.
Amy Jen Su:
Yes.
Daniel Stillman:
Yes. Amy Jen Su, I am so grateful that you made this opportunity, this space in your day and your life to have this conversation with me. Thanks for your time.
Amy Jen Su:
Daniel, thanks so much for having me, and I'm so excited to be here with you today.
Daniel Stillman:
Thank you. So I have not read your first book, but I love the title of it, and I was wondering, just to orient ourselves in your journey, I was wondering if you could connect your first book and your second book, because they seem so connected to me, this idea of owning the room and finding your signature voice and being the leader that you want to be. What's the through line in these two works for you?
Amy Jen Su:
Daniel, wow. Thanks for that question, because there is a through line, and the connection is in some ways, both bodies of work mirror my own journey as a leader, a professional, as a person. So in the years that we were working with leaders and professionals on discovering their signature voice and own the room, those were things that I was sitting in the middle of and exploring myself. And so for the time that we started our firm in 2004, through when Own The Room came out to market in 2013, this idea of, and similar to your work, what are the conversations we're in? What are the many rooms, I guess now virtual rooms we all sit in where owning yourself and connecting to others is important. And then the outflow of that work was realizing that as the world got a little crazier and busier, I would have clients say to me, "I can own the room, but I can't seem to have enough hours in the day to be my best self. So it's hard to do that."
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Amy Jen Su:
So The Leader You Want To Be naturally flowed out of the work.
Daniel Stillman:
It's really interesting because there's a quote from your book really early on that effective leadership is about creating the conditions, understanding the conditions that cultivate your highest and your best use. That is a really fundamental challenge for people is literally just, not just finding the hours in the day but finding the leverage points in their day. Those are two different conversations, right? Having enough time and then doing the, quote unquote, the right things.
Amy Jen Su:
Absolutely. I think, as you said there, we're often so busy that we don't have the time, or we forget to take the time to pause and look inward and to say, wait a minute, what were the conditions that made the difference between a day going a little bit more smoothly and for myself to feel connected to myself and to have the impact that I hope to make.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Amy Jen Su:
And retrospectively, as we do the introspection, wow what was it about those days which didn't feel as easy, and I felt a lot of resistance. And there's a lot of wisdom to derive from that.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. So what I love about your work is this wisdom can be found in ourselves. Some of it can be found in ourselves. I think the question in our last conversation was where am I burning calories? And just that question is like okay where am I spinning my wheels and then what? It's just such a powerful question to be asking oneself.
Amy Jen Su:
Again, I think that as you said, Daniel, the pause point, the check in, the without judgment pausing to reflect and sit in those questions of inquiry for ourselves, I think we all underestimate the wisdom that does exist in our experiences to date, within our bodies, within our knowledge base, and certainly there's great wisdom in those who work with us, which is why 360 feedback and other forms of feedback can be powerful and sort of the combination of both things, the willingness to hold up the mirror to ourselves and to ask others to hold up the mirror can be the catalyst for propelling us into greater forms of expansion and growth.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. There seems to be this idea though that we can find our own way to be the leader that we want to be, that there isn't a single correct right way to do it. Am I reading you right? Or is that, so she's taking a deep breath in, tell me more.
Amy Jen Su:
Yeah. I don't know that I think there's one way for each of us, but I do think, I believe we all have a path, and if we tune into that path and we trust it and we understand what we're made for and we honor that and follow that thread in our lives, it can be a very powerful way of coming to know north star and to see if we're heading in a directionally correct way, but how that shows up in my life may be different than yours.
Daniel Stillman:
Yes.
Amy Jen Su:
So I don't know that I think there's a right way or wrong way beyond how do we each find our way to tune in.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. So maybe I misspoke. I agree with that. It is our job to find our way, our approach, our path. And I feel like it's, in the middle of the book I saw you quote Mary Oliver and I immediately just had this wave of relaxation go across myself, because I love this poem, Wild Geese, that says you do not have to be good, you do not have to walk for 100 miles on your knees repenting. You only have to let the soft animal of your body love what it loves. And to me, I mean what does that poem say to you about leadership?
Amy Jen Su:
I love that poem, Daniel, and I am so happy that it resonates for you and that you love Mary Oliver's work too. And I think it says a lot about how hard we are on ourselves as leaders and professionals. I'm stunned by some of the folks that I work with who are making a phenomenal difference in their organizations, for their families and for their communities, and how hard they are on themselves and that when we start a new role or we find ourselves in change, somehow we assume the clock goes back to zero. It absolutely doesn't. So there's something in Mary Oliver's work and I think that poem in particular that reminds us of the importance of self compassion, and it's amazing how we speak to ourselves in ways we would never speak to a friend or a loved one. So I think that poem reminds us to say, in the way that you would say to your best friend, with kindness, walking them out of a tough day, why don't we speak to ourselves that way?
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. Why don't we? So in the framework from your book, The Leader You Want To Be, there's this idea of the people in the picture. And I think there's two ways to look at that question of people. There's the question of the inner people that we're carrying around. There's definitely somebody who, at least you and me, I don't know if anybody else is like this, there's some inner people that we're carrying around that are not cheerleaders, that aren't necessarily safe harbors, and it seems like it's important work to do, leadership work to do, to look at our own inner stakeholders, for sure.
Amy Jen Su:
For sure, Daniel. That inner committee as you just described often play outdated roles in our life, right?
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Amy Jen Su:
So someone in our life that had that kind of impact or that kind of influence on ourselves when we were 10, when we were 20 in a first job, may have served their value. So in part of all this conversation we're having around how do you stay updated to yourself, it's also knowing when it's time to let go of voices that no longer serve us, and in fact disempower us, and then how do we along the way, in coming to understand who you are today, who are the cheerleaders and safe harbors and the really beautiful network of support that can also live life with us and ride alongside us as leaders and as people.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. When I was reading this list of stakeholders one needs to have in one's corner, the sausage maker, the accountability buddy, the mirror, the cheerleader, the safe harbor. I was reading that and I was like those sound a lot like roles that a really great coach does, and I'm wondering what do you feel like, are there hats on that list that aren't on that list that you feel like you do as an executive coach, ways that you're showing up in your conversations with leaders? Ways that you're showing up on purpose to be that person in their dialog?
Amy Jen Su:
Absolutely. I think the list that's in that particular chapter that you just named are many of the roles that a coach will play in a given coaching conversation, whether that's like a helicopter helping to lift somebody out of the weeds and to see the bigger picture, certainly the accountability buddy that if you set priorities and goals for yourself, there's nothing like having somebody to check in with a couple of times a month. But what's not on that list as a coach, I think because we play a unique role as container, we hold a safe container, I hope, for others to do the exploration to safely share what's on their mind, to reveal the vulnerabilities that invariably come with holding a lot of responsibility and accountability.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Amy Jen Su:
So that safety and that container we hold I think is an important part of being a coach.
Daniel Stillman:
Can we unpack that a little? Because when I was reading this section about sausage maker, I was like this is such a safe and important, like having someone to, for those of us who think this way, free wheel, but not have it be taken out of context, not have it taken too far, like it is so powerful to have someone you can sausage make with, and to have that safe container around it. What do you do as a coach to build that container for yourself and for your clients? If we're building those four walls, what are those walls in that container?
Amy Jen Su:
I love that visual. I think the walls contain psychological safety, certainly. That when we're sausage making, we're riffing with another person, we're allowing thoughts to flow in stream of consciousness, that there's no judgment.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Amy Jen Su:
I think often when we feel that we're in the face of judgment, we hold ourselves back or we don't feel that we can speak freely, so being able to be witness to another person's wonderful process, to sit in the presence of another person's thoughts and brainstorms and creative expression that's flowing through them, I know from myself personally, and I wonder if you feel this way, it just feels like the greatest honor.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Amy Jen Su:
To be able to serve in that role for another person.
Daniel Stillman:
Absolutely. I think it's pretty hard to coach someone if you don't respect the work that they're doing. At the same time, it's interesting, I imagine, maybe I'm identifying our first paradox of the conversation, the safe container versus mirrors is very like maybe an objective mirror, but then there's somebody who steps forward and says, "Do you see what you're saying?" And that becomes maybe more of what my coach would call tapping somebody's bottle, being like, "Do you see what you're saying?" Which is a little different than saying, "You just said this."
Amy Jen Su:
Yes.
Daniel Stillman:
So yeah, where do you step forward in that way?
Amy Jen Su:
I think, I love that you're describing the dance, right? So within that container, the fluidity of dialog, I think often begins with the openness of the safety, the inquiry, the curiosity and wonder of what's happening for another person, how they see the world, what assumptions they're making, and then you as a coach, listening in and tuning in to the patterns that are being reflected and what's being shared, and then I think in that moment of safety and trust and after hearing, being able to say back to somebody, "Could I frame for you what I feel like I heard you said?" Or, "Can I reflect back what I feel like maybe I heard, or a pattern that is emerging, and let me check in on how that resonates for you?"
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Amy Jen Su:
So if you only spent the entire coaching time listening and in inquiry, right?
Daniel Stillman:
Yes. Yeah.
Amy Jen Su:
The balance and wholeness of coaching where then you have an opportunity to reframe or create new distinctions, or to shine light on a different way of seeing something or to help someone uncover historic pattern that they may want to explore, come up with a new set of choices.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Amy Jen Su:
Requires you to also be willing to share those observations and make those frames back.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. And to really clarify, what I think you did with your, what's the word I'm using? What you were modeling really beautifully in that moment is an invitational pattern. I'd like to mirror this back, I'd also like to check in with you how that resonated, it's stepping, when you talk about the metaphor of advance, it's stepping in with clarity. It's not waiting to strike. Saying, "Okay well I'm seeing this now, do you see this?" It's saying, "Can I share a perspective?" And then checking in with it. So within the coaching there's almost this micro coaching moment. It's a conversation that you invite yourself into and they can say, "No, I don't want anybody's feedback." But then of course this goes toward choosing your clients very well, and only working with people who are open to being challenged, or working with people who are interested in looking at themselves in a mirror.
Amy Jen Su:
I think part of that seeking, checking in on the invitation, is sort of meeting someone where they are.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Amy Jen Su:
So in our own work, how do we sit in a space and own fully our own space, while allowing somebody else to fully have their presence and space, where we are neither overbearing nor shrinking our own presence in that moment.
Daniel Stillman:
So one of the things that was really interesting to unpack with you was this idea the various paradox ... I don't know what the plural of paradox is, paradi?
Amy Jen Su:
I'm not sure, yeah.
Daniel Stillman:
Paradoxes doesn't sound right, but I think that's what it is. The idea of finding a middle path that is not watering down was such a profound idea in your book, and I feel like the idea of coaching someone through a paradox is a really interesting question, because, and I have a few that I've captured here, this idea of I need solitude time versus I need to be in community, how do I find time for both? Ones that we talked about in your own business, autonomy versus control, being busy versus being still, being reactionary versus passive, honoring myself versus transcending myself. They can seem like double binds sometimes when we're in the problem. So I'm curious about helicoptering I guess is the term you used, right? To pull someone out of that paradox and to see that they have choices, that they have agency.
Amy Jen Su:
Absolutely. And I think, Daniel, what you said there, the helicopter, the how do we broaden the perspective where what is tempting to be seen as an either or proposition is helping ourselves and others really seek the both and. So even in Own The Room, as you mentioned, my first book, the inherent paradox we were exploring was how do you have a voice for yourself and voice for others, and that the most effective leaders both have cultivated an ability to bring their own voice, opinion, point of view, decision making, to the table, as much as they've cultivated the ability and the access to know when it's time to listen and to ask questions and to hold multiple perspectives, and that being in the zone is kind of this middle path of that in a conversation we're being fluid to both those things and when we're too anchored in just one, if I was a leader only having a voice for myself, you might experience me as a bull in the china shop, or unwilling to listen or interrupting, as much as if I'm only listening and asking questions, someone might question my leadership ability.
Daniel Stillman:
Right.
Amy Jen Su:
So it's the both and of what can seem like a paradox on the surface that in working with others you say, "Wow, how much more effective can you be to multiple situations and audiences by having access to the whole versus just half of the toolbox?
Daniel Stillman:
This goes to the question of as you indicated in your book, what is effective? What is going to get me ultimately what I want? What I see as my best and highest use?
Amy Jen Su:
Absolutely.
Daniel Stillman:
What will help me create what I'm trying to create? I think that I'm struggling with, this is something I've been struggling in with my own something I've been writing right now, so maybe you can coach me on this, because I think there's this tension between how people think they need to be, because I think people want me to be a certain way, I have this other way that I want to be, and then there's, as you're talking about, empathy, tuning into my audience, understanding what is needed, and then finding a way to resolve all of those tensions and to show up as we intend. It's a complex dialog between these different points, to find the mean.
Amy Jen Su:
Yes it is.
Daniel Stillman:
Now I feel like I should read your first book.
Amy Jen Su:
Yeah, I know. It is complex. It's taking that moment, as you just said, to first say who is the audience, what's the impact I hope to have on them, what's my intention, and then coming back to oneself to say well what's the message? And then there is that moment of marrying both mission and message, but recognizing that there's a very specific audience that in honoring and helping the audience to receive your message, it's taking that extra pivot and step.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Amy Jen Su:
Or in the case of, as you mentioned, solitude and community, right? This also depends on your own preferences. Some of us need more solitude time to feel our best, some of us need more community time, but in the end, as human beings, we both meed time for quiet and rest, as much as we need belonging and connection to other human beings.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Amy Jen Su:
And so, do we have awareness of that and do we have a portfolio of practices that allow us to oscillate to one of the other as needed?
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. And also to learn how to self manage when we have to do the thing that maybe we don't enjoy doing as much. The idea of oh I'm not so good with crowds, and it's like well guess what, that's something you're going to have to manage, you might have to do an all hands at some point and you just have to find that in yourself. How do you coach somebody to find something in themselves that maybe they don't feel is there?
Amy Jen Su:
In that case, as a leader, let's say suddenly now your role does demand that you do more all hands, and it's not your favorite thing. So just recognizing, my hope, number one, is that you're in a role that speaks to 80% of what comes natural or to your strengths but there's always going to be 20% of any role, I think, that forces us to oscillate out of our comfort zone, but it's an important part of the mandate. So in the case of the leader who may not love doing an all hands, perhaps we would tap into the values they feel towards making sure that they're transparent with their organization, that they do care about employee engagement, and that their communications from a one to many perspective is really critical. So for that leader, helping them get prepared for that moment so that they can increase their comfort, and then making sure maybe it's after the all hands that they block an hour after the event to make sure they grab a little time-
Daniel Stillman:
Recovery.
Amy Jen Su:
Back to themselves to recharge the battery.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. So it's really planning for the process, understanding, we talked about what are the conditions that cultivate my highest and best use, it's really about the care and feeding of me, whoever the me is that's looking at that. I think some people look at that and say I shouldn't need an hour to prepare and an hour to recover, and then they judge themselves and say well I'm terrible at blank because I need an hour to chill out and I can't just go into my next thing. And I feel like we abuse ourselves with that idea and it's unfair.
Amy Jen Su:
It's unfair, it's unproductive. I think the faulty assumption that we, for high stakes situations or conversations, that winging it is the way to go. I think there's a point where I often will say to a leader, "Hey, your job now requires a different influence where the percentage of time you once spent on the slides versus the percentage of time you are now going to allocate to prepare for delivery.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Amy Jen Su:
Has to change.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Amy Jen Su:
Because now a lot of your impact and your contribution is actually how you show up to the broader organization.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. And I think spending as much time visualizing how you're going to be and how you want to show up is work.
Amy Jen Su:
It is work.
Daniel Stillman:
And I don't see that as work, it's in our work. It's working on our instrument, ourselves, but it is still work.
Amy Jen Su:
Absolutely. And I think it's time, I often advise my clients, "Hey at the start of your week, take a look at your Outlook Calendar Monday through Friday, it's not that you're going to be able to prep for every meeting, it's not realistic, but pick the two that really make a difference to priorities, or could really make a difference to employee morale or your team's morale. Or it's a really difficult conversation, perhaps it's a feedback conversation and you want to both get your message across but honor the dignity of the other person, those do require some preparation time and be thoughtful and, to the word you used, Daniel, planful, mindful, intentional.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Amy Jen Su:
So as a practice, I always say pick the two this week where just that little bit of extra preparation and thoughtfulness could make a big difference.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about mindfulness and what it means for you? You said a couple of times, and I know you did your fair share of work in that direction, to the point that it's one of the five Ps in your framework, can you say a little bit about why that's important to you?
Amy Jen Su:
Mindfulness is important to me, I know it's a popular item and topic these days, for good reason. Everything we're talking about here, the tuning into oneself, the bringing the head and the body back together in any moment, the head heart body, and saying, "Wait, what's actually in front of me and going on?" I think one of the misnomers about mindfulness though is that somehow if you start meditating or having a mindfulness practice you're going to feel these wonderful happiness mood states all the time.
Daniel Stillman:
Right.
Amy Jen Su:
And in fact, I have found it's the opposite. It's getting to the truth, whether that's a painful emotion or a positive emotion, you're tuning into what really reality is so that then you could be making better choices or creating the action plan necessary. So oftentimes we either want to run away from something, or run towards something. Mindfulness I think brings us to, with razor clarity, actually let's come to reality.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. Well it's funny, we're talking about the difference between what some people might call spiritual bypassing and Taoism, right? Which is seeing the way and accepting the way and working within the way. And I don't know, that's again a question that's not a question, that's just me summarizing, clarifying for myself. I know that in your book you talk about this, the Eastern thought has become very mainstreamed in a way and it's both good but it's got a little flavor to it that it's like well I'm glad, but let's not misuse it. You have a long tradition, and this is also it's part of your culture. I don't know what my question is in there for you, it feels like there's complexity there for you.
Amy Jen Su:
There is complexity. I did grow up in a household where Eastern thought was always part of our upbringing. My father has always talked about the middle way and not living or playing to the extremes and so it's been something that I've thought about for a long time and what is yin and yang and why are the dots inside each side and a lot of curiosity there. But I love what you said, Daniel, about spiritual bypassing. I think with anything, any trend, we all need to be careful to not have it become our new distraction or our new form of egoic heroism. Rather than saying how do any discipline, from any culture, all cultures had explored for centuries what human performance and potential can be and what can I learn from different ones and which ones speak to me and resonate for me.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean I think where my mind was going with this was that your book is a very practical feet to the ground guide, and if you're listening to this, I'm looking out the windows, whoever's here listening in on this, I found each chapter full of, and I'm just a lover of frameworks, a good two by two to analyze where my highest and best uses, you take this very lofty ideal of what's my highest and best use and you say well here's a two by two and let's break it down and let's have a really, really clear conversation on that. I think it's so valuable.
Daniel Stillman:
At the same time, at the center of one of your diagrams is purpose and I just had this discussion with a CEO today where he was like, "Well what can we do together?" And I'm like I don't know what your purpose is yet, man. What do you want? We just started to draw the map of what you want. Once we figure it out, we can go there. And that's work that nobody can do for you. That's inner work. And so that's what I love is that you do have that, there's an affability, it's not just a business book without a soul.
Amy Jen Su:
Oh I appreciate that, Daniel, and it warms my heart to hear that you picked up on that because that, I think in terms of just being a business person myself, and serving the corporate world, there is a pragmatism and a practicality that's super important. We all have results we need to deliver and priorities to make and teams to lead and so in the everyday of what we do of our doing, it's important to say how do I optimize my productivity and my efficiency as much as it is, to your point, around the conversation you just had with that CEO, where does doing and being come together, and again, who we are as people and the motivations that guide our actions can have tremendous impact on our organizations and culture.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Amy Jen Su:
So it feels like the conversation has to explore both the what and the how, and the why.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Amy Jen Su:
In terms of purpose, like why even put resources against something or time against something if we fundamentally can't answer that question.
Daniel Stillman:
Right. And who or what or how could we answer that question, right? What would help one do that? And at the end of the day, it's a question that a leader has to define, it seems like they have to define for themselves. Or at least that's the privilege to be able to do that.
Amy Jen Su:
There is a privilege in it in terms of being able to set the why for more people than just yourself.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Amy Jen Su:
And in higher orders of leadership so much of the job becomes you're the person to help paint the picture, to help connect people to why should they care? How does their day to day job connect to something bigger than all of us? And I think the best leaders, especially at the CEO level are able to do that.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. I want to make sure we have some time talking about some other paradi, because I'm wondering, what I loved in our first conversation was getting a glimpse into you clarifying for yourself your own tensions that you were trying to navigate, and I thought it was such an amazing touchstone. In my work when I think about designing the conversation and designing the conversation with yourself, in a way what I saw was you clarifying here are the extremes that I am navigating. The yin and the yang that I'm trying to work through for yourself. And when I saw it I'm like I think that's something everyone needs to do, is to have a map on the wall of here are the choices I'm working through, having agency around, and I'm just wondering if there's one particular paradox that we can sit with for a minute and talk about how to peel apart the layers.
Amy Jen Su:
I'm happy to. I every year sort of put together a one pager that's my north star, and what is it I'm struggling with as a leader.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Amy Jen Su:
And it shows up in the work, because then I'm curious how other people are handling it as well. So probably one of the ones that started off actually a couple years ago in a conversation with a group of leaders was this paradox of leading and learning, but interestingly it's showing up a lot in my life this year and so I think, Daniel, of the four paradi, paradox that I showed you where I had lead, learn, community, solitude, action, stillness, dissatisfaction, gratitude. I did have lead, learn at the top, I think probably for a reason.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. What does that mean to you? We talked about it earlier, this idea of as a leader if you're only asking lots of questions, there's a question of who are you in this relationship, where what do you want maybe doesn't show up. What is that tension for you?
Amy Jen Su:
I think the tension as a leader is on the one hand, all of us want to show our value and understand our value and remember who we are. So on the lead side, in the roles we're in, or new roles or opportunities we're given, really thinking about wow, if nothing else this year, what are the three things I hope to do for this organization or for this team or for this body of work? It really calls on the part of ourselves to lead and have a voice and have a point of view and lean in and really help drive something forward. And at the same time, how does that not tilt into somehow I need to prove myself.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Amy Jen Su:
And it's a fine line. So I think for me, the paradox of lead, learn, the learn side helps to keep it truly in leadership and learning and not veering into some prove myself space. So as I mentioned earlier, sometimes this faulty assumption of that somehow the clock went back to zero just isn't true. So on the lead side it's always saying, "Gosh, with every new experience I have an opportunity to lead." But there's amazing learning in every new role too.
Daniel Stillman:
Yes.
Amy Jen Su:
So I think even as I help leaders onboard, or I'm helping myself right now, it's both the what are my goals and what do I want to achieve this year as much as what do I want to learn?
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Amy Jen Su:
In a new industry or in a network or something else, and holding both of those things in balance somehow has helped navigate tough weeks easier.
Daniel Stillman:
It's so profound, what's coming up for me, I was just working with a group where they were taking on, I was really working with them around facilitative leadership and being better facilitators of complex dialog in the organization and what they realized for themselves was we have to own what we don't know. We have to own that we are holding space, that we are creating the conditions for these conversations to happen, there can be this tendency to want to pretend that we know more than we do, and I think owning what we want, and owning what we want to know more about is so powerful.
Amy Jen Su:
And I love the word you're using, owning, Daniel. Because I think it's how do we own [crosstalk 00:37:39]-
Daniel Stillman:
It's actually yours. Wait that's your phrase.
Amy Jen Su:
Well just as you said it, the word captured me, because I think we don't own ourselves unapologetically, both for what we know and what we don't know. And there's actually, as you were just describing that set of leaders, there's tremendous confidence that telegraphs when we can say, "Hey, you know what, Daniel, that's a great question, but I actually don't know."
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Amy Jen Su:
And I'd love to sit with it or have my team look into it or ask my colleagues around the table if others have a point of view or instinct on it. And I do think that the voice, when we were talking earlier about the voices in our head that can be unkind, that says you must be an expert, your value add is tied to being an expert. Can sometimes really get us into trouble.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. Sometimes for sure, I would say. Well for no other reason than it's not authentic, right?
Amy Jen Su:
Right.
Daniel Stillman:
To say that-
Amy Jen Su:
You can act like we know everything.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah, so this is really interesting, and this is where maybe having a helicopter view of the lead, learn paradox can be so helpful, because I for myself am totally obsessed with knowing and knowing as a survival method in my family system, and as a consultant and as somebody who does learning and development I'm sure all of this resonates with you. People want to know, they want to be told often, they want a solution, and it is much harder to sit with not knowing.
Amy Jen Su:
It is much harder to sit with it. Our society grooms us to acquire knowledge, and then we're graded on that. For anyone who had kind of the good student carry with them forever, you head into our adult life with that same framework and I hope, even writing on a sheet of paper and looking at it everyday, that even as I go through life and acquire more knowledge that I preserve enough humility that there's a lot still left to learn, and that the colleagues I work with are very smart and if someone disagrees with me, it's probably for good reason. So rather than getting defensive which often is easy to happen, how do I maintain enough of a stance of curiosity to at least hear out why they have a different point of view.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. So I'll, as we're unpacking this conversation of leading and learning, there's curiosity is a vector in that dialog, and then pulling ourselves out of it and seeing the rationality of we can't possibly know everything. That's self coaching, right?
Amy Jen Su:
Yeah.
Daniel Stillman:
So you can't know everything, so it's okay to pump the breaks on that feeling of danger. I think it's so important to be able to, and this is really sitting in that paradox of we can't know all the things to do and we have to be very specific on what we want, what our goals are, both in accomplishing and also in filling our own gaps really specifically. I'm so desperate to ask, what do you want to learn about this year? If you feel safe to tell us.
Amy Jen Su:
Yes, this year I am continuing to go deeper in my own exploration of mindfulness. So I have been listening to and I'm going to say his name incorrectly, so [inaudible 00:41:35] videos, I was just listening to one this morning around how to stay present even when the moment feels unbearable. So inquiry and listening to other teachers in that modality have been really helpful. And then on the practical side, this is the first year where I'm a board member of a private company, it's a really different, new role for me, and it's one worth sitting in the middle of leading and learning and humility.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Amy Jen Su:
Has been really critical because it's completely new. So as we all take on new roles as leaders, it's an exciting time, it's a company I'm very passionate about, and believe in their culture, and very humbly with my fellow board members realize I have so much left to learn. I'm sometimes awestruck by how much there's still left to learn about different businesses and people and organizations.
Daniel Stillman:
That's really wonderful. Thanks for sharing that. And with our tiny amount of time left, what haven't I asked you that I should have asked you? What haven't we talked about that's important to talk about?
Amy Jen Su:
I think as we think about paradox, I did want to shout out to a colleague named Brian Emerson who wrote a book called Navigating Polarities. For anyone who's interested in polarity and paradox work, just kind of who have been the teachers and influencers in my life around that particular subject, Brian and I have been colleagues for a long time and he's a deep thinker on polarity, so I would be remiss to not shout out his book and work as an influence, for sure.
Daniel Stillman:
It's duly noted that you're owning what you still have yet to learn.
Amy Jen Su:
Yes. I still have a lot to go. Total work in progress, all the time.
Daniel Stillman:
Something that I'm really taking away from this conversation is that you talk about it's important for us to realize where we have agency and to make choices, to make effective choices based on what we want, which comes down to knowing ourselves, and that is a path towards resolving paradox, is to ask what we want. And I think what we haven't touched on, and I don't know if we can do it justice, is this idea of wholeness, that even within that choice there is still a view of wholeness.
Amy Jen Su:
I think, thank you Daniel for raising the question of wholeness, because paradox, while we think it's either or, often it's parts of a whole. We are parts of a whole. Leading and learning are parts of a whole life experience, right?
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Amy Jen Su:
Community and solitude are parts of a whole human experience and so I hope as all leaders and professionals and people explore their own development, so many different interesting parts of life and ourselves as human beings and just the more we explore that and discover that the more whole we become. So that's kind of a personal mission for my own life and for others that I work with, that we can access a whole ambitious, full life.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah.
Amy Jen Su:
I don't think it gets better than that.
Daniel Stillman:
So this is, I want to make sure I understand this because I think it's, I don't know if you ever read Zorba The Greek.
Amy Jen Su:
No.
Daniel Stillman:
Well you can just watch the movie, Alec Guinness, it's a classic, it's one of my dad's favorites. There's this line where he talks about life being the full catastrophe. Getting married and having children, the full catastrophe. And in a way, this idea of community and solitude or gratitude versus contentment has choices that I make once and forever is not the truth, the truth is that I have a whole life and I will get to make this choice many times over and that it's potentially even a cyclical set of choices to make, and sitting with that wholeness is that it's, well this is just one time I'm choosing this.
Amy Jen Su:
There's life in many ways is just many, many, many moments that we sit in and that we make choices, the frame of our life, the life condition and situation we find ourselves in drive different choices, and recognizing there is agency and the ability to craft. I mean to use your language, design and create a full life is really exciting.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. It is an amazing opportunity to be able to do that. Where, of course, where should we direct people to the internet if they want to learn more about all things Paravis Partners and Amy Su? Where can they go to learn more about you?
Amy Jen Su:
Our firm's website, paravispartners.com is a good place to start, and embedded in there is also theleaderyouwanttobe.com. So for folks interested in potentially finding more information, those are both good places to start.
Daniel Stillman:
Yeah. And your book is a worthwhile read.
Amy Jen Su:
Thanks.
Daniel Stillman:
I really appreciate you making the time to unpack some of the subtler points at the core of this long and deep work, which is becoming ourselves and accomplishing great things. So thank you very much for making the time.
Amy Jen Su:
Thank you so much for having me and for the dialog, I really, really enjoyed it. Thank you.
Daniel Stillman:
Thank you. And scene.