I’m a fan of saunas. They are an ancient, time-tested way to relax, renew and to connect. And I love to visit saunas wherever I go in the world, to experience a uniquely different spa culture. With so much history and tradition, you might think it’s impossible to innovate in this space, but my guest today has warmed up a whole new generation to the magic of saunas and ice baths by doing more than just providing a space for people to have a mostly solo experience.
In this episode, I sit down with Robbie Bent, co-founder and CEO of Othership, a blended startup - both an IRL innovative experience business combining large communal saunas, ice baths, breathwork, sound, and community and an app-based digital product to help you shift your state, wherever you are. In-person, Othership guides and facilitates a powerful group experience, drawing from diverse influences like classic group therapy traditions from the Hoffman Institute to new traditions formed at psychedelic medicine retreats.
Othership’s spaces are an opportunity to solve the loneliness epidemic by providing healthy spaces for connection and healing. Robbie's personal journey led him to meditation and breathwork during a low point, and he now shares these practices through Othership.
A quick shout out to another Robbie, Robbie Hammond, who connected us and who made me aware of the scope of the sauna revolution. Robbie Hammond is the co-founder of the Friends of the Highline, and now is the chief strategy officer for the Therme Group, which makes mega-saunas worldwide. Check out our conversation for some deep insights into leading a growing organisation and how to make the improbable possible.
Some gems from this conversation include Robbie Bent’s reminder that embracing imperfection and rapid iteration and learning are powerful growth drivers, but that launching early gets harder the bigger you get.
Robbie also reflects on the challenging seasons of being a founder, advocating for prioritizing well-being during intense growth periods, but admits that it’s not always easy to avoid over-caffeinating, forgetting to eat and then over-indulging to de-stress. It’s a humanizing reminder that we all fall off the wagon sometimes and that the important thing is to continuously return to what really nourishes us. A shout out to my podcast conversation with artist and teacher Kate Quarfordt where we unpacked her four seasons model, which is one of my favorite frameworks for designing any experience.
Robbie also discusses his hard-won wisdom about the importance of having difficult conversations early to avoid resentment and promote effective communication, and learning to speak from an "I" perspective as early as possible in order to face conflict honestly. It's a wonderful illustration of what I like to call FQ- your festering quotient. Unlike most quotients that you want to keep high - like your IQ or EQ (that is, your so-called general intelligence quotient and your emotional intelligence quotient), I believe effective leaders learn to keep their FQ as low as possible - facing hard conversations sooner rather than later and doing so in a way that keeps the temperature of the conversation from getting overheated - which speaking from your own perspective, rather than accusing can help make possible. Check out my conversation with Rei Wang and Anita Hossain, Co-founders of coaching platform The Grand, where we discuss the SBIO (situation, behavior, impact and opportunity) model to help frame these conversations constructively.
Enjoy our discussion, packed with hard-earned lessons and surprising insights.
Key Links
Follow Robbie Bent on Instagram | LinkedIn
More About Robbie
In an effort to affect positive change and address the problem of loneliness and the detrimental effects it has on our individual and collective health, I’m building a platform that includes physical spaces, a mobile app, a concert tour and a global community.
Othership IRL:
A modern bath house with a 50 person sauna, ice baths, and a tea room. We offer guided facilitation for the hot + cold circuit, social hour, and performances like breathwork, sound experiences, and body-based movement. We’ve created a healthy social experience that can serve as a substitute for bars that is both fun and accessible.
Othership URL:
A digital product to shift your state whenever and wherever you are. Our app consists of over 250 guided breathwork classes to harness the power of the breath and build promoting habits. A transformative tool that makes up-regulating, down-regulating, and everything in between easeful, effective, and fun. We also go on tour with live musical breathwork performances. Sort of like a Cirque Du Soleil journey inward.
Othership Community:
A growing and vibrant web of curious humans connected through both our physical space and our digital offerings with forthcoming virtual group circles for a deeper opportunity to see and be seen.
My vision is to create space that encourages openness to the awe, belonging, and interconnectivity that animates the human experience for a more joy-filled life and living.
May this platform create space for shifting states and continue to offer peak experiences that inspire awe and belonging.
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Full Transcript
Daniel Stillman
So I want to give a shout out to another Robbie who isn't in this conversation, Robbie Hammond put us together. I interviewed Robbie and always wanted to interview Robbie Hammond because Every time I walked in the High Line, I thought there must have been like a million conversations that went on to make something as crazy as the High Line real. And that's one of the things that I. What I didn't know was that he was as deep into spa culture as he was, and that he was doing all of this gathering work across the spa ecosystem. And I. I think we should just. We could start with this revolution, I guess you might say, in the spa wellness ecosystem. And what excites you about building a company that's creating these kinds of experiences?
Robbie Bent
Yeah, absolutely. That's a huge question.
Daniel Stillman
It is a huge question. We'll just start right in the meat of it.
Robbie Bent
Yeah. I mean, for me, it just came down to creating spaces that people could connect in a healthier environment. Um, you know, I built an ice bath in my backyard with five of my best friends. And, yeah, it was just open for the neighborhood. And so you could literally open a gate. You know, imagine like a kind of a suburb of Brooklyn, something similar like that in Toronto. And you would open a gate and walk in, and there was a free ice bath along with towels and a fire going every night. In the summer, There was a QR code. You take a picture of and join a WhatsApp group. And if you wanted to cold plunge, you just say, hey, I'm. I'm going. We called it inward to start. And you say, yeah, I'm going inward at 1pm who wants to come? And a group of neighborhood people would come, would be hanging out there, having coffee kind of every day. So I. I had no intentions to. You know, I didn't come at this from like, oh, I'm building. I want to build a spa part of spa culture. It was just. This is a really good way for people to connect. That's not based around alcohol. That makes it easy to let your guard down. Nobody's on their phones. Everybody is present. You're kind of the great equalizer. You're in bathing suits. And so we just.
Daniel Stillman
That is. That is the great equalizer. 100. Yeah.
Robbie Bent
Like, nobody's wearing jewelry or clothing. It kind of is just, hey, you're here wrapped in a towel and the, you know, norepinephrine, dopamine, the neurotransmitters in the brain, the response, you have to contrast therapy, heat and cold. It's very similar to exercise. And so, you know, we come in a cold plunge, you get out and you just feel alive and ready to talk to strangers where maybe you'd normally have social anxiety. And so we just saw a lot of relationships being formed. People starting to date, people like, you know, hitting their sobriety goals, people making new friends. And for New Year's, that first year of running the backyard probably had 12, 15 people reach out to me and say, like, hey, they found a partner or a new group of friends or changed their life. And it was at that point, wow, this is, this is really cool. I want to build more of these spaces and make this practice more available.
Daniel Stillman
Yeah, the space is really different. I mean, for people who have not been to other ship or maybe have, I mean, not even been to a sauna. Like, so I'm a, I'm an old school New York City sauna guy. Like, I love Spy the eight on the, you know, on Fulton Street. I, I guess I graduated from the Russian Turkish baths, which are a little, little too authentic, maybe. And if you go on a Friday morning and it's real quiet at spy88, like, what if there's any talk? The talk is like spa heads kind of like talking about other spas, which is kind of a weird, I think, kind of a weird phenomenon. People be like, oh, have you tried this place? Or that? But generally it's like you're in your own, you're in your own experience and it's completely unfacilitated. It's like you, you either know what you're supposed to do there or you don't. And what I think is so interesting and fascinating about this next wave is that there's tons of people who don't know necessarily what to do in these spaces. And also you're, you're helping them understand things that they can do in these spaces. But it's a completely facilitated experience. I think that's certainly one of the things that's most unique about, about othership and in terms of like, you know, building a space or a place where people can have an experience or the affordance for them to have an experience versus, like, facilitating it. Like, what I see on Flatiron is a long evolution from what you're talking about in the backyard. Like, I know it's hard to describe the implicit Innovation process. I know you did a lot of research. There's been a lot of journeys, but it seems like a step change. It's like a Pokemon, you know, it's like, it's a whole other evolution of, like, whoa. How do you feel like that spark can.
Robbie Bent
Yeah, I think just over time. Like, I. I'm a big believer when we're talking creativity. And, you know, you mentioned the high line. It's like, allowing for immersions. And even now, like, we have new ideas. So with New York specifically, there's some interesting things that are New York related and could only be done in New York. So one was, you know, I was at the Comedy Cellar celebrating putting up the hoarding of our space, like the signage. And we were like, we flew into New York. My wife had surprised us. She's our designer, my co founder. It's ownership is two couples. It's like a family business and a fifth best friend. And so just best friends, like, building this thing in a garage and then, like, taking it to New York, which was a huge dream for us. And so we show up in New York as these Canadians, and one day we go to see both our spaces and the hoardings up, and we're like, pretty mind blown. They're like, oh, my God, we have not one, but two spaces coming here at once. Like, this is crazy. It was such a feeling of like, like triumph, but also like, oh, can we even do this? Like, is anyone gonna come? Are we gonna go bankrupt? And so we go to Comedy Cellar that night because we're big fans of comedy. And the whole time, someone beside me was. Was drunk, you know, wasted, and, like, yabbering on and on, and I couldn't hear the comic. And I was getting so pissed, just like, I wonder if you could do this in a different environment. And so I badgered one of my friends who's a comic, and he was like, no, that's lame. Like, I'm not going to do it in a sauna. That's weird. It kept saying, like, hey, why don't you come check it out? Let's try something. So we did a comedy set in other ship where you start in the cold plunges, you get all hyped up, come into the sauna, you watch two sets of comedy back into the cold, plunge for intermission, two more sets of comedy in the sauna. And there's free time to meet the comics and talk about the jokes and stuff like that. And so you end up coming home, no drinks, feeling great. And I. That was a Huge hit. And then it became a hit in New York, inspired by New York. And we're getting comics with Netflix specials and that are at the Comedy Cell. They're like pro comics coming to this place and performing. And it's got this, like, New York, raw, authentic energy that doesn't really work anywhere else. Same thing. And that just emerged from like, oh, let's try something. So I'm not even looking at this place like a spa. I'm looking at more like a entertainment space. So can you.
Daniel Stillman
Yeah.
Robbie Bent
We partnered also with local group Daybreaker, who's like, pretty infamous.
Daniel Stillman
I've been to. I've been to other ship. Daybreaker party. It's.
Robbie Bent
Yeah, it's amazing. Yeah. So we. We again, like, you know, we're looking to part.
Daniel Stillman
Anytime there's a trumpet, I think it. It makes things a little bit better. Personally, I never would have thought anytime I've been to a sauna, this definitely needs to have a brass section.
Robbie Bent
But I was wrong that that specifically party has just like really grown now to the point where just like comedy night, you know, famous DJs are coming in and around a big show. They're asking to do an intimate show at other shit. And so that was something again, like partnering with a local force who's been in the community for a long time and just bringing magic, you know, professional dancers and string and brass section and, you know, singers and MCs. And you would never think this was part of sonic culture, because it wasn't. And so what we're really trying to do is take things that happen. Our mission, which is like, to connect and to bring that into a space that just happens to be a bathhouse. And with that lens, it's allowed so many things to emerge. You know, dating nights, journaling sessions, magicians, tea ceremonies, all kinds of different stuff. And we're really, like, experimental. So when I'm looking for inspiration, I'll look to spas for design. I'm touring, you know, dozens of spas every year to test steam rooms and the saunas and the cold plunges and look for interesting ideas. But then I'm also touring a lot of stuff in culture, so going to museums and concerts and shows and experiential retail things like Sleep no More and trying to get ideas.
Daniel Stillman
Yeah.
Robbie Bent
To pull in. But that's. That's, for me, like, creativity is really just about allowing space to emerge and then being. Not being afraid to fail. And so we test things all the time and, like, obviously the first rendition is going to suck and it's really hard when you have something that gets bigger and bigger to put yourself out there. And like, this might suck and that just becomes like, you know, face that rejection over and over is tough, but I think it's very important in the creative process because the first time you do something, it's just not likely to be good, you know, and it takes. Yeah, like even the daybreaker party, where the Heat Wave party, we're on our probably 10th rendition and it's like legitimately 10 times better than the first one because you just have learnings about like how the flow should work, how the music should work, how the crowd should be modulated, how many people should come, how you explain to people in the opening email what to expect, how you follow up. So I love, like, for people listening, just like allowing creativity to emerge through testing.
Daniel Stillman
Now, as a, as a founder or as an experienced designer, I think there's, I mean, I always joke that there's two types of people, those who think there's two types of people and those who don't. It's a terrible joke. Makes me thank you for laughing and I appreciate it. But like there's, there's people who are willing to go from zero to one and make that jump that it's, it's hard. I hear you talking about the, the iterative process of creation and the first one being like the messy, shitty first draft mindset. And for some people, they have the opposite, the perfectionist mindset. Like, the first thing I do needs to be perfect. Obviously there's tons of founder verbiage about like, oh, if you're not embarrassed of your first product, you've, you've launched too late. But I'm clearly you've learned about this is not your first rodeo. Right. So I'm curious how you feel like you've developed that mindset of let's do it first and it's okay if it's not perfect.
Robbie Bent
Yeah, I just from. I like hard won learnings in my DNA. And so I had a startup that failed, like legitimately, had raised a bunch of money, had 100 employees. At one point it went to zero. And so that one was like, it was a roaming solution. And so for me it was a SIM card that you would put in your phone. It could work in any country. Then I was like, no, no, we can't launch. We have, it has to work in every phone. It has to be for business travelers and professional, like personal travelers. It has to work in every country. And we, you know, we're going to Build everything from scratch. We're going to hire all these people. And so I didn't really know about this, like, Lean Startup theory, which you mentioned, is, like, becoming more popular now of, like, hey, if you're not embarrassed by it, you've waited too long. And so now it's. I just. I think bias for action is very important. And so the other thing I've learned from othership also is just whatever you plan, it's not going to go the way you thought. And like, a funny example, because people learn in stories, is just, you know, we had the chance to open for this really big wellness PR event in Flatiron. And so the space, if you saw it, was, like, in tatters. You know, cons, like construction tools, sawdust, dirt, like, just terrible. So we had the chance to get open. So we rallied the team, spent, like 72 hours straight getting everything clean. We were. We were ready. And I couldn't believe that we actually pulled it together, which is really nice to, like, set a team deadline and burn the boats and say, like, hey, we're gonna. We're gonna do this and make this happen. And then, you know, so we get it all ready. And then that night, as we're about to launch our first ever event for all these kind of, like, celebrities, that fire department shows up to test the fire alarms. And I'm like, what? What does that mean? And so, you know, they're like, well, if you. We can leave, but it's going to take two weeks for us to do this. You need this to get open. So they're coming in and we're doing the class, and you've been to a guided class, and, you know, the music cuts out, and so the guide is just talking with no mic, no. No sound, just talking, no music. Then somebody faints off the bench, and, like, you know, they're passed out and people are like, oh, my God, does this happen all the time? And the fire alarm is blaring when you open the sauna door, and it was just a total disaster, but people still had never experienced anything like that. So they ended up loving it and it was okay, you know, and everybody there, we just gave them a free pass and invited them to come back again. But it's just the example of, like, until you. And from that night, we've learned a whole bunch of stuff to fix. And, like, until you actually test something, it's all just conjecture, you know, for everything. So whether it's like, guide pay rates or pricing or new merch product, like, nothing survives the Planning phase. And so from my initial company where I didn't try and just planned and planned and planned to this company now having launched hundreds of different ideas, the first thing I'll do is just like, what can we try now today? Like, what can we just try and see? And then not being afraid that it's like not going to be great.
Daniel Stillman
Yeah, it seems like you really applied that. Oh, sorry, go ahead.
Robbie Bent
I just get one other point on that is I think even though it's not going to be great or perfect, if you are excited about it as an entrepreneur, you can bring that enthusiasm to the event or the space because you're so passionate about like, okay, maybe like the check in and the language and the experience isn't going to be completely dialed, but I'm very excited about seeing like, you know, if we do street magic in the tea room, oh, that's probably going to be delightful for a customer. So even though it's not perfect, it's still like delightful and there's like something we're interested in. So we've recently launched singles night. We're thinking about how to have like specific questions and like icebreakers in the plunges and different group shares and so even though it's not going to be perfect the first time, there's like a lot of excitement around like, oh, if we solve this and create a new space where you can actually meet a romantic partner, like, how cool is that? So I think having a lot of like authenticity and, and excitement and like what you're trying to solve can make up for like the polish that comes later.
Daniel Stillman
Yes. Yeah, it's the iterative test and try and it seems like you've really taken that lesson to heart of your first startup of, you know, the trying to make it perfect before you launch versus the like messy and iterate. And it seems like it A is more effective for you and B gives you more joy, C gives you more data and more information and more, more velocity. It's like good, good reasons to lean into that all across the board. The other thing I'm hearing you say is, you know, the space is, it's not a blank slate. Obviously there's a lot of love and intentionality that you put into it, but it's, it's also a space where you, you can lay in a lot of facilitation, a lot of different types of experiences. I just got an email from my friend Brian Von Onken about who I think you, you, you and I might have, have Brian in common. I know him through Menswork. And he just told me there's going to be a men's work session in other ship. And I was like, that's really cool. I actually didn't. I don't know if you're a. If you're a men's work head or if this is something that somebody else from the team has brought in. I don't even know if we're allowed to talk about this publicly, but I just got an email about this this morning while I was looking through my email and I was like, this is really cool. So I'm. I'd love to unpack this a little bit with you.
Robbie Bent
Yeah. So one big thing that makes the othership unique is like a lot of the inspiration came not from spas, but from therapy, group therapy, psychedelic therapy retreats, Hoffman, Tony Robbins, landmark. A lot of these things where you like. I struggle with addiction for a long time and have found a lot of power in sharing for two reasons. One is, is the ability to speak. Something to me makes it feel more true or gets it out of my head and into the world. So it's helpful for me to process my emotions through being vulnerable, which is even why I like going on podcasts and like, talking about how I'm feeling. And then two, seeing other people express themselves vulnerably can also lead to unlocks. And I've just seen that magic moment. It's like you're doing a menswork session on Zoom and you're like, I don't want to go tonight. I'm dead busy at 7pm working all day. I don't want to go on Zoom. Then you go on and you hear someone share that, like they're feeling imposter syndrome, or they're struggling with their wife or, you know, their brother has an addiction, they don't know what to do, or they're feeling like, that money issues. And then like that, like hits home that, wow. Like, it's hard and I feel like a human being. And it's kind of the opposite to social media, where you feel less like a human being from watching because it's not. It's not. As the content is not real in the same way for the most part. So I just. We. We've all done a ton of this kind of work prior to Othership. We're very excited about bringing it more to the mainstream. And so even in all our classes, there's a share component, which in like, fitness is pretty unheard of or like wellness in general and a spa. And so we baked that into our classes and we saw these, like, powerful, powerful shares. And then when we started, we broke up into, like, oh, I wonder what would happen if we had women's nights. We had space for women. And then what would happen if we had men's night? And so we had brothership. And then we've been experimenting with both. And this is the first one we're launching in New York, but it's been around in Toronto for two years. It just takes a while to find the right facilitators. And again, this is the first one. It's a series, and we'll test it. And so we've done men's work where it's a more masculine energy, where, you know, it's legitimately a hundred men in the cold plunge room with a drum, like, screaming at the top of their lungs, like beating their chest and, like, plunging together. And like, the energy is just, just. It's like you're in a, you know, championship football game or something like that. And then we found, like, oh, you know what, maybe it's better if we have a more feminine energy for the men's night. And it's, like, more soft. And so then we moved the women's night to have more of the masculine energy and the screaming. And then that was pretty successful with men, we had more of a meditative, silent, slower experience, focused on emotions more than, like, aggressive yelling. And so. And we're always kind of changing and testing, but, yeah, that. That has emerged. And now in New York, I mean, it's sort of the center of men's work. You know, there's Everyman, all these other amazing communities. And so in Toronto, those men's nights are a bit harder to fill, where the women's nights are quite easy. And I think New York, specifically the men's nights, are just going to be a massive hit. And it's something like in each city, the culture is a little different. And in New York, you have more people that are transient, that are moving there, that are, like, looking to meet friends that are social. So our community in New York will actually book brunches and, like, dinners with each other after the sessions. And so people are just more outgoing and, like, it's just a harder city to live in. It's more of a grind in Toronto. And so I think the men's work is going to. I think it's going to explode. I'm, like, really, really excited about it.
Daniel Stillman
I mean, I really hope so. I think something that Brian and I have talked about in the Past it's like, you know, my, my men's group certainly moved online during the pandemic. And getting people back in person, it's just online, as you say, is just way too easy. I run a monthly drop in men's group, but it's, you know, it's, it's usually if you're going to have an in person men's work experience, it's going to go to. You're spending lots of money and lots of time on a retreat and finding these little ways of interacting with other men in a safe space I think is really, really powerful. And it's really cool that you guys are facilitating it. So I'm actually really excited. I'm gonna miss the first one. So I'm really hoping that it catches on. I get to go.
Robbie Bent
Yeah, I think it'll catch on. I think it'll be monthly for sure. I'm pretty certain, like it's gonna sell out. And I just. It's like a, it's such an awesome environment to like the song on. The cold plunge kind of opens you up and if you think of where you want to do men's work, you know, you're on zoom at the end of the day, like, that's not the state you want to be in. You want to like power up your state and then share. And so I actually think it's pretty, pretty perfect. And like I could see a world in which, you know, there's thousands of sauna plunge spaces all around New York and like that's where men's groups happen. And like, that's the thing is like, go and you do this stuff and it's kind of healthy because it's like in a, in a gym, if you're working out, it's hard to also talk because you're exercising. And so you kind of do the exercises, the activity, but here you can be doing this thing together, talking and communicating the whole time. So I think I'd love to see a world in which like, you know, 8 out of 10 men like go and do something like this at a bathhouse environment once a week would be so cool.
Daniel Stillman
Yes. I think it would definitely be a very, very different world if people did. Now I'm wondering if we can shift gears a little because, you know, there's the product and the experience and the facilitation of the experience that people have when they come to other ship. And then I think there's the conversations behind the scenes. You having a conversation with yourself about what would be cool to try what we might do. And then the top, the conversation you have with all of the other people on your team and as you mentioned, your two couples and a friend, it actually sounds like the plot of like the first Muppets movie. It's like, let's go to New York, let's put on a show, let's all pile into an old Studebaker, like, let's do this. And I love the, you know, it's clear that there's a lot of powerful relational skills that you all have from all the work that you've done. And you know, I, sometimes I feel like the, the connective tissue, the substratum of any company is the culture which comes down to the conversations that we have. And so I'm curious how you think about your meetings. Like the conversations that you facilitate. It's, it's, it's, I assume it's a little bit different. Then there's maybe less towel waving or maybe there's more towel waving in your, in your, your day to day conversations. Take me into the granular level. Like, how do you all approach decision making, planning off sites like the, the nitty gritty of like dialogue that drives a company forward.
Robbie Bent
Yeah, it's really unique. Just the makeup, like on one hand we're offering like a very deep transformational emotional experience and we're trying to like in as far as we can to that. So we'll have sessions on, you know, loving kindness where you're like legitimately cued to think about somebody you'd like to forgive, which can be quite uncomfortable. There's an eye gaze in that class. We're, we're going into themes like acceptance, gratitude, processing, emotion, somatic experiencing. So things that, you know, inner power where you're screaming in the dark. So we're trying to lean into things that create like a very transformational experience for people as our North Star. So that's on one hand, but on the other hand we're running a hospitality company that's almost like a five star restaurant with like insane volumes. You know, the space is open from 5am to midnight and we're priding ourselves on having the best training, the best hospitality, the best facilitation for a guided spa experience in the world. And to do that, it's like running a professional restaurant. And so, you know, that requires more of a team mentality than like, hey, this is about burnout and touchy feely emotions. Because at the end of the day you're delivering an experience for people that is a professional experience in the same Way that, you know, Cirque du Soleil puts on a play or Gordon Ramsay or a chef delivers a meal. It has to be perfect. And so when you come in, towels have to smell perfect, have to be rolled perfectly. The space has to be immaculate. There has to be no cups around. The smell and the incense and the different essential oils have to be dropped. The language has to be tight. So having that level of perfection mixed in can sometimes be challenging for the team, I think. And that is our expectation and what we want to deliver is like, you know, our one value is building belonging. We have three core values. So they're like. I think they encapsulate the experience perfectly. So building belonging is one. And it's this idea that you can be your full self with others so you can come to the space as you are and, like, be accepted. And we have a whole bunch of things. Socials, dating nights, different community nights. We then have what we call inspiring awe. And that's that feeling of like you are seeing the best performance you've ever seen. You're in the ice bath, you're doing these peak experiences. You're feeling like you are as a child. And then the other is cellular commitment. So while you're having those things, like, the experience is hard, challenging. It's a, you know, 32 to 40 degree ice bath. You're pushing yourself in the sauna, you're in a bathing suit, which can be uncomfortable. You're sharing, you might be eye gazing. It's not easy. And it's also a commitment for the staff to deliver this because it's a. It's a hard environment. So I think there is. I've been noticing a tension, especially as we grow between, like, providing excellence but also wanting to have a culture that is fun. So I think what works really best is people who are very committed to, to the mission I mentioned and delivering this experience to others. They fit in very well with the culture, which is like the guides who, you know, we're very quite good retention with our guide staff. And it comes from people who are like, really wanting to give this experience to others and take pride in their work. When we started, we used to be way more flexible. And it's not only, you know, these five best friends and couples. My sister works for us, somebody who's worked for our family for a long time. The hospitality space works for us. So the first 10 employees, everyone knew each other really well, which in some ways, you know, you'll hear like, don't work with your friends. But in other Ways if it works out, it's like incredibly powerful. So we didn't really need to do much for culture because everybody has known each other for so long and was just like so on board for it. We're very intense about. Sometimes a lot of people have tattoos of like the other ship logo, which is pretty crazy. And like, even in. You're talking about building culture and you mentioned the Muppets. But to open New York, we all live together in the same house. And so that might seem like whatever, but like we're all between 30 to 40 years old. And so we had a toddler living there. There was 12 of us, sometimes 16 people living in this house in East Williamsburg off the Lorimer subway line. And people were living in bunk beds and on air mattresses to launch Flatiron. And so you didn't really need culture because we actually live together. And so it's just like, you know, pizza at the end of the night, cracking jokes, everyone in the ship together. Um, but we used to be more, you know, we'd be doing these retreats and taking psychedelics and playing drum circles together as a team. And as you've got bigger and that stuff kind of puts your brand and team at risk. And so we've become more corporate and so we have a retreat this summer. But some of the less. Some of those things have been pushed aside. So I think for now it's just, it's just like who is most passionate about this mission and how do we deliver a product that inspires people and that you find fun in building the product more so than having to find fun in other ways. So like something fun now would be like designing a, you know, like the comedy night, for example.
Daniel Stillman
Yeah. You know, I'm wondering, your co founder experience with this company is really different than your co founder experience, I imagine, with Romley. And I'm curious, like, how you've learned from the ups and downs of going through these journeys to lean into. There's always going to be difficult conversations. There always have to be frank conversations with, with our co founders and our management. I'm wondering like, what you feel like your. Your philosophy is now of leaning into having conversations that might be harder than the normal everyday.
Robbie Bent
Yeah, I would say our team was like very junior when we started. Everybody. You know, for three people on the team, this was kind of their first like real job and definitely that first like company they've created. And so managing people was completely, completely new when we started. And now here in Amanda, my co founders manage like 75 or 80 guides. And so it's just like hard learned. Yeah, but like I do nothing and I would leave conversations for a long time, especially if like something was bothering me, but I just didn't want to like get into conflict. And so it would really wait and then, you know, usually explode. I'd be resentful. I'd be sitting in the shower like, how dare they do this? You know, kind of thinking about like disemplayed and do this and then would get angry about it and then feel guilty that I got angry. And so that was like a pattern for me. It was like conflict, avoidant, resentment, building, exploding, guilty. And realistically the feelings were valid. You know, it wasn't something I needed to be guilty about. It's just like, hey, have these discussions early. I don't think I'm good at it still, but you know, I'll use. I've had a number of different coaches and therapists and so I'll just try to have the conversations sooner. And I think that's like, you know, the real thing is just can you talk about how you are feeling from an eye standpoint kind of as quickly as possible? And it gets easier as you get more established. I think we also had a coach for the entire team which worked well to help facilitate conflict, which I think is a good investment when you're starting out with your co founders. And then I also just like, in some ways it's been easier as friends, in some ways harder. I found it's easier to be vulnerable with a group of friends about what's happening, but it's harder to criticize. And so that one I still haven't figured out. But like, luckily things are really working. I think we're just, you know, I think what I would take away from this is just if you're trying it, like, go for it and the communication patterns probably won't make or break and it's just going to be a journey that you'll, you'll figure out along the way.
Daniel Stillman
Yeah, I mean in a way it sounds like similar or parallel learnings from Romly to now in terms of leaning into learning versus leaning into trying making things perfect or avoiding them if they're not perfect in essence. And I definitely, sometimes I call this the fester, your fq, your festering quotient. And if your FQ is high then it's just going to make everything harder because it just means you have more time to stew and fester and resent when you, when you sort of laid out your pattern. It's such a, it's also clear that you have a lot of self awareness of the ways in which you created or participated in the solutions or the situation and are just seeing the one very easy lever you can pull which is lean into having the conversations more often and just with more honesty with, with more focus on like what, what of my coaches calls the inarguable truth. Just saying what your experience is, what, what the facts are, what your feelings are and doing it sooner rather than later. And those are really transformative levers to pull, which is, which is huge. I guess the other thing I would wonder about is self care. You know, I think about like it's like a chair has, can have three legs, can have four legs, you can have a five legged chair. And I think about support for founders. Like you're doing a very hard job building something that's never existed before. Trying to do it at speed, at scale is extraordinarily challenging. And I'm curious how you think about supporting yourself. Like the things you, what do you do to keep yourself renewed and alive? You mentioned coaches for your team, you mentioned pizza. I don't know what else you're doing that help nourish you and sustain you and support you as you go through this, you know, really challenging journey.
Robbie Bent
I don't think there's like a good answer for that. Like I've had times in my life where I was so healthy and doing five hour morning routines and like that's all I cared about, was optimizing. And you know, I've also had times when I was like super addicted to alcohol and drugs. And yes, I think for this one what I've realized is there's just like seasons of your life where you make sacrifices and for me like building this thing, I love doing it but I've just sacrificed a lot and there was no other way to do, you know, four flagships. And we're just about to allow a fifth location in the next probably month or so also in New York. So it's really exciting news. But to do that in sub four years, there's just no way to do that without like, pretty immense sacrifice. And so there was a moment, you know, and especially like the faster you go, the more mistakes compound. So three leases, or last three leases we signed in parallel. And so the mistakes in, you know, unit two and unit three, unit four are all there. And so it's like, fuck, maybe that same mistake three times. And like the layout and the sizing. So that's really frustrating. But so there was a moment like last summer where because we're growing fast, you know, actually ran out of money. I couldn't get open. I was smoking a vape, probably like one in every three breaths, like throughout the entire day. Like I would go to a class and then mid class I would go in the back quarters and like smoke a nicotine vape. And just. I was that stressed. Yeah, and I know that's unhelpful, but I would just be drinking coffee and vaping and like not eating all day and then eating a giant pizza. And then like, I would probably cry in the street like four times. And then at the end of the year, my body. But I honestly, in the moment, even with all these different practices, I just didn't know what else to do. Like dealing with the fear of scarcity except, yeah, like, build. And then at the end of the year, my body sort of gave out and so I stopped smoking and I stopped drinking coffee in December and I slept for, I don't know, probably six days straight. And this year I've worked out, you know, 50 times, I've meditated every morning. And so because I'm not having those stimulants, everything else just seems to be easier. And it's working for me right now. And like, you know, business also successful. It's in a good season in terms of last year, like we've launched New York, it's stable, our next build is like under budget. We're just crushing it. And so that feels really good. But I'm sure, you know, the next step will be like, okay, well should we open three new cities at once? And then it's a whole nother, like, level of growth. Like it would be easy to open a new one in New York each year with what we've learned and the experience. But to now grow bigger, it's like a Whole new challenge and, you know, might end up back crying in the street and smoking vape and I don't know. But I definitely feel better. I think when I'm like really at my lowest. My wife always recommends psychedelic work and I didn't use any psychedelics for a few years after my son was born. And I found that helpful to just process like deep, deep stress and fear. So that's kind of something that works for me to do a deep dive maybe once a year, twice a year or something like that. And then a daily meditation and no caffeine really helps me personally also. But I can easily get back into those patterns. So I think, you know, things to remember. Just no one size fits all. Sometimes it's just going to be hard. Try your best but like, you know, you choose what you want and I chose this. And so I'm happy that my plate is full because I asked to eat. But I'm not going to say like it's hard to then say like, yeah, I'm not hungry when I like ask for the food, you know.
Daniel Stillman
Yeah. Well, it sounds like there's other elements. I mean, you have a community living situation, right? I think a lot of people out there are not creating community for themselves. So there I, I'm, I'm guessing that there's other elements to your community wellness. I mean, what are the groups that.
Robbie Bent
You go to the space like four times a week? Like I was in there last night and I work with my best friends and my wife. So I spend like 95 of my time with the person I love the most in the world doing something that we want to do together. So like that's. Yeah, I think if you're doing something that's stressful and shitty and you hate it, it's like so hard. But like I actually, yes, this is just stressful because of the monetary impact. So like I've signed all these leases, I've signed all this debt. If it fails, I'll be broke. And so that's like stressful. But the day to day is actually so much fun when there's, when it's not stressful. So like right now if I go in the space and I see people sharing, it's like my favorite thing to do is just to watch people share in this space and be around people and give them a free passes. Like it's so much fun. So I think that's what keeps me going when things are like really bad is just to like go in and use the space itself and like be around the community. Like, I'm in two WhatsApp groups as a CEO, and I'm, like, talking to every single customer in person because I just. I loved. You know, that's, like, really fun for me. So that, I guess that's the community we've created as part of the business is what really helps.
Daniel Stillman
That's really beautiful. It's really beautiful. And I appreciate this idea of seasons of. Of your life. And I think you also talked about this earlier with, you know, the personal work and, you know, trying to create a fun space to work and then saying, it's go time. There is a. There's work to be done, there's a perform, there's a show to be put on, whether you are. Whether you feel up or you feel down. There are 60 people showing up first for a session, and we've got to put on the show, and the towels have to be clean. Like, these are things that have to happen. Similarly, it seems like, you know, mirroring on another level, you're like, look, we have these leases. They've been signed. It's go time. But it seems like you're also tuning into the signals of your body and taking care of yourself the best you can and listening when it. When it's knocking lightly and when it knocks louder, you're definitely listening, which sounds important.
Robbie Bent
This. Yeah, I mean, this. I think we're trying to have another baby now. And so, you know, doing this with one child was quite challenging. Like, moving to New York with, like, a toddler and no support, and now we're trying to have a second. And so I just felt like this was some time where I can breathe. But, you know, we're about to open a couple more studios and have a second baby, and so it'll probably go back to that for a little bit more. But it's like, I. I want to do this for the next 20 years. Like, I just love it so much. So, to your point, like, how can you. You can only maintain a crazy pace for, like, I think after, like, two years, it starts to get unhealthy. And so we're five years in now. So I think this. This last four months has been, like, a nice sort of reset. And I think, you know, later to the end of this year, it'll go back to more intensity.
Daniel Stillman
Yeah. So I'm curious. Like, I actually don't know if you hang out with other founders much or in any kind of, like, you know, a men's group context. You know, like, I run a founders forum. I think founders being in conversation with each other can be really, really powerful. And I'm curious, maybe what's the best piece of advice you've received from another founder and if there's any advice you'd give to other founders who are listening in.
Robbie Bent
Yeah, it's funny one because like so much advice is like good and bad depending on perception of where you are. Like it can resonate like six months.
Daniel Stillman
Later, depending what season you're in.
Robbie Bent
Exactly. I cannot resonate at all. So I think, you know, the one that's most alive for me is just like working with my wife is just like the greatest joy right now. And it's like deep in our relationship so much. And so I think learning from that is when you care about building something and like solving a problem and really care about it to do it with someone else that you care about. Like the relationship you form in building something together is so different than a familial or romantic relationship. Like, you know, or like there's a relationship definitely to being a co parent together that's been very interesting to explore that I love. But like building something together as a romantic couple is just really mind blowing and like unique thing that most people don't get to experience. So I think if you're looking to build something, find someone else that you care about to do it with and it just makes it a lot more fun.
Daniel Stillman
I think it's beautiful. What do you think it is that you. Because like, look, a lot of people hear this and you know, I'm very sensitized when I hear a couple, you know, they can bite into each other in little ways and some couples have more positive relational skills and others just don't. And I'm curious what you feel is, is the central communication capacity in your relationship that allows you to be able to do this together.
Robbie Bent
I think it's just a general respect for each other's skill set. And so we both do like very different things for the business. So I think if your skill sets were the same and like one person worked for the other, that can be weird. Like my wife is just way better than me at branding and design. That's what she runs and then she manages all our marketing. And so I'm just like consistently in like awe of like wow. Yeah, like she's, I mean also look, it's not like, hey, work together and it'll be great. It's like two skilled people that really care, that are both driving forward and achieving I think is what makes it work. But you're not going to Take a relationship where one person's not achieving and like work together and make that work. So I think that's again, like, the advice is what's true for me now may not be true. And the caveat is like, it works because everybody, you know, same as like, I watched the other couple here in Amanda and their elements, and they're like the best sauna facilitators of emotional work in the world. And I've been doing it for five years, day in, day out, every day, you know, developing the classes, doing the training and like, you watch them and it's inspiring to see like, I think it's always inspiring to see people who care so much about things trying to make something happen. So I think that's what it is. It's like just seeing somebody that you love that cares and like achieving. It's. It's really like sexy and inspiring.
Daniel Stillman
Yeah. When, when you both really believe in what you're trying to create together and there's deep respect for the capacity of the other person to help create that dream. And presumably the flip. The other side of that coin is not when there's respect, there's no disrespect, which means there's, there's no. When there's criticism. It's. It's constructive in terms, in relationship to what you're trying to build. It's a very, very different dynamic.
Robbie Bent
Yeah. But I can see if like, you know, one person wasn't pulling their weight. It could be, it could be difficult to navigate.
Daniel Stillman
Yeah.
Robbie Bent
So there's some risk there as well.
Daniel Stillman
100%. 100%. But I would like. We're going to take it with all the grains of salt. This is highly specific to where you are, but I think it still can be ported for other people who are listening to think about the aspects of respect for another person's capacity and having a shared dream in what you're trying to create. I think you could abstract that to anybody to say this is an important component of, of a, of a powerful, useful co founder relationship. I know we're really close to time. Is there anything I have not asked you that I should have asked you?
Robbie Bent
I mean, that was pretty fun. I like, like more behind what we're doing, like the why and like being able to just discuss like real things, real fears and you know, it's, it's nice to. It's like a therapy session, but wrapped in a podcast.
Daniel Stillman
Right. We're just. It's, you know, it's a, it's a, it's convert it's talk therapy for all of us. I. Look, I think conversations have. Have a real capacity to change. You know, basically you. You get what you get out of life through the conversations you have. And it sounds like you're having a lot of the conversations you need to be having. Certainly that's one of the things that I'm taking from this. Your. Your lesson of reducing your. Your FQ and your. Your professional relationships is really powerful. Obviously, we'll put links to othership. Is there any other places you'd like to direct the good people to? For all things, I think, you know, try our app.
Robbie Bent
It's. It's. There's a free trial and come to come to the space. Visit us in Flatiron. If any of the classes I mentioned are resonating like come, come check them out 100%.
Daniel Stillman
Well, we're at time, so I will call scene. And really, really thank you for showing up and being willing to be open and honest, vulnerable and share your perspective on this thing that you do, which is really cool. That's the best to change the world.
Robbie Bent
Thanks, man. I appreciate you.
Daniel Stillman
Yeah, I appreciate you too. See you in the sauna.
Robbie Bent
Cool. I'll be living back in New York for our Williamsburg launch in, you know, September. Ish. So it'd be great to get together in person and do a class together. And in the meantime, we'd love to have you at one of the men's classes.
Daniel Stillman
I am really looking forward to that. I think that's going to be really, really cool. I'm really glad you guys are doing that.
Robbie Bent
Awesome. Thanks, Dan.
Daniel Stillman
Awesome. Thank you so much, Robbie. Appreciate you.
Robbie Bent
Cheers.